HC Deb 20 February 1967 vol 741 cc1296-302
Mr. Swingler

I beg to move Amendment No. 44, in page 24, line 31 to leave out 'licence under Part V of the Act' and insert 'full licence'.

Perhaps we may consider with it Amendments Nos. 45, 46, 48, 49, 54 and 55, which are all consequential. The Amendment is designed to provide a simplification of language, and introduces a more concise term for the expression "heavy goods vehicle drivers' licence (other than a provisional licence)", substituting the words "full licence".

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: No. 45, in page 24, line 32 to leave out '(other than a provisional licence)'.

No. 46, in page 24, line 38, to leave out from 'a' to 'authorising' in line 39 and insert 'full licence'.

Mr. Swingler

I beg to move Amendment No. 47, in page 24, line 40, at the end to insert: (3) Where in pursuance of section 193(4) of the principal Act (suspension or revocation) of licences under Part V of that Act) the licensing authority revokes such a licence, the authority may—

  1. (a) order the holder to be disqualified indefinitely or for such period as the authority thinks fit for holding or obtaining a licence under the said Part V; or
  2. (b) if the licence is a full licence and it appears to the authority that, owing to the conduct or physical disability of the holder of the licence, it is expedient to require him to comply with the prescribed conditions applicable to provisional licences under the said Part V until he passes the prescribed test of competence to drive heavy goods vehicles of any class, order him to be disqualified for holding or obtaining a full licence until he has, since the date of the order, passed such a test.
(4) Where the holder of a licence under the said Part V is disqualified under paragraph (a) of the last foregoing subsection the licensing authority for the area where he resides may, in such circumstances as may be prescribed, remove the disqualification, but so long as a disqualification continues in force a licence under the said Part V shall not be granted to him and any such licence obtained by him shall be of no effect. (5) Where the holder of a full licence is disqualified under subsection (3)(b) of this section a licensing authority shall not thereafter grant him a full licence to drive a heavy goods vehicle of any class unless satisfied that he has since the disqualification passed the prescribed test of competence to drive vehicles of that class, and until he passes that test any full licence obtained by him shall be of no effect. This Amendment is to provide the power for licensing authorities to disqualify a driver from holding a licence to drive heavy goods vehicles, where a driver has shown that he is clearly unsuitable to hold a heavy goods vehicle driver's licence. It is desirable that there should be no doubt that the licensing authority has the power to prevent him driving heavy goods vehicles, either indefinitely or for a fixed period.

That power resides in the hands of the licensing authority, who may take away the licence but does not have power to require a driver to pass another test before he can obtain another licence to drive heavy goods vehicles. The court which has found him to have committed certain driving offences has power to disqualify him from driving all motor vehicles until he has passed a driving test, but that power is limited to ordering a test prescribed under Part II of the principal Act.

Since the power to suspend or revoke a licence to drive heavy goods vehicles rests with the licensing authority, the power under the Amendment should similarly rest with the licensing authority.

Sir D. Renton

Could the hon. Gentleman assure us that this is no new departure; that this is merely a revision of existing powers on the part of licensing authorities to deprive not only the holders of goods vehicle licences of those licences but to revoke the driver's licence, or withhold it as well? Does such power exist at the moment, or is it new?

Mr. Swingler

We are dealing with a new provision here because we are dealing with a special licence now introduced. That is why it is a provision of this kind.

Sir D. Renton

I realise this is not a Committee stage—

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. The right hon. and learned Member cannot speak more than once. We are not in Committee.

Sir D. Renton

May I have leave to speak, having previously asked a question? The answer we have received seems to me to mean that there is an important new departure taking place on this Amendment.

Mr. Swingler

No.

Sir D. Renton

In that case, either the hon. Gentleman did not understand the question or I did not understand the answer.

Mr. Swingler

Perhaps I can clear it up. Powers to this effect already exist in Section 193(4) of the Road Traffic Act, 1960, for suspension or revocation of licences. So the right hon. and learned Gentleman will see that this is not a new provision. It is in relation to a new provision, for these special licences, but the origin of it lies in the Road Traffic Act, 1960.

Sir D. Renton

I was interrupted in my speech. As I understand it, this is not a new departure, in the sense that the licensing authority is not for the first time being given the power to revoke a driver's licence. It is a point we need to be quite sure about.

Mr. Swingler

I am sorry. The right hon. and learned Member has succeeded in confusing me. The provision of these licences, he will appreciate, is a new departure in Part II of this Bill. That is why the same power concerning revocation of the licence must be made in this Bill, but if the right hon. and learned Member is asking whether a novel principle is involved, my answer is "No" The right hon. and learned Member will find that powers to that effect originate in Section 193(4) of the Road Traffic Act, 1960.

Mr. Graham Page

I am still at a loss. The position under the Road Traffic Act, 1960, Section 193(4) seems to be that the Traffic Commissioners may revoke a driver's licence and not just a goods vehicle licence. The subsection reads: A heavy goods vehicle driver's licence shall, unless previously revoked, continue in force for three years from the date on which it is expressed to take effect, but may at any time be suspended or revoked by the licensing authority of the area in which it was granted on the ground that, by reason of his conduct as a driver of a motor vehicle or of physical disability, the holder is not a fit person to hold such a licence; … There, the licensing authority has full power to suspend the driving licence of a heavy goods vehicle driver.

There is some reason for the present Amendment giving some extra powers to the licensing authority. As I understand it, an extra power which it gives is that the driver's licence can continue to be suspended if he is committing any offence under the present Bill, and also that he will not hold any licence under the present Bill so long as he is disqualified under Section 193 of the Road Traffic Act, 1960.

What my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Huntingdonshire (Sir D. Renton) is concerned to know is whether this is a new departure. It is a new departure to the extent that the powers are applied to the Bill, but it is not a new departure in principle. The licensing authority has had the power under Section 193 to revoke a licence previously, though it comes as a surprise to me to discover it. That is merely being applied to the provisions under the present Bill.

Mr. Carlisle

May I raise one further point? Although the Amendment also gives the licensing authority power to say that a licence shall not be returned until the holder has passed a driving test to drive a heavy goods vehicle, that provision was not in Section 193 previously, and, to that extent, it is a new departure, is it not?

Mr. Swingler

This element is a new departure. It is not a new departure that has power to suspend or revoke on the basis of the principle that I have mentioned. However, the licensing authority has not previously had power to require a driver to pass another test. Part of the purpose of this Amendment is to give the licensing authority power to require him to take another test, and that is a novel provision.

Mr. Galbraith

The discussion which we have had shows the great difficulty in which the House is placed if a fairly complicated Amendment of this nature is brought in at a late stage. We cannot discuss it as we could in Committee. If the Minister has other legislation in mind, I hope that she will not again introduce such complicated Amendments at a late stage. They are not appropriate to the Report stage of a Bill. I am in a rather highly favoured position, because the hon. Gentleman wrote to me about the matter, for which I am grateful to him.

Mr. Robert Cooke (Bristol, West)

We are concerned with heavy goods vehicles in the Amendment, and the hon. Gentleman will recall that I have had some trouble with his Ministry about a case in my constituency of a commercial traveller who was told that he had to have a goods licence for his vehicle because he carried samples which were for sale. When my constituent pointed out that they were not for sale, he was told that, at the discretion of the local licensing authority, he had to have a goods licence for his vehicle because the samples were very heavy.

I have had correspondence with the Ministry which seems to suggest that a professional musician who plays something like a piccolo can use a private car to drive himself round, whereas, if he plays a heavy instrument such as a harp, he may need a heavy goods licence. Is it the fact that a local licensing authority can at will decide the sort of licence that one must take out for a vehicle?

Mr. Swingler

I should be delighted to enter into details of the cases raised by the hon. Gentleman if I had them at my disposal. However, we are at the moment supposed to be discussing heavy goods vehicles drivers' licences, and I should not be in order if I tried to answer the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

I did not intervene earlier because I was not entirely clear myself. I am clear now that what the hon. Member for Bristol, West (Mr. Robert Cooke) said is out of order on this Amendment.

Mr. Robert Cooke

I am sorry if I gave a false impression. I do not want to leave the hon. Gentleman in any doubt that I have had an extremely unsatisfactory correspondence with his Ministry on this point—

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman will have to inform the Minister about it on another occasion.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: No. 48, in page 25, line 7, leave out from 'a' to 'to' in line 9 and insert: 'full licence to drive a heavy goods vehicle of any class'.

No. 49, in line 13, leave out from 'class' to second 'a' in line 14 and insert: 'corresponding to a full licence and not being'.—[Mr. Swingler.]

11.0 p.m.

Mr. Swingler

I beg to move, Amendment No. 50, in page 25, line 21, to leave out from 'revoking' to second 'on' in line 24 and insert 'any Northern Ireland licence and of making an order under subsection (3) of this section as is conferred in relation to a licence under Part V of the principal Act by section 193(4) of that Act and the said subsection (3).'. This Clause unamended confers on licensing authorities the same powers in relation to the suspension or revocation of a Northern Ireland heavy goods vehicle licence the same power as is conferred on a licensing authority in relation to heavy goods vehicles licences issued in this country. The purpose of the Amendment is to confer on licensing authorities the same powers to disqualify, so far as driving heavy goods vehicles in this country is concerned, the holders of Northern Ireland heavy goods vehicle licences as apply to the holders of such licences issued in Great Britain.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Swingler

I beg to move, Amendment No. 51, in page 25, line 26, to leave out 'that subsection' and to insert 'the said section 193(4).

This Amendment is consequential.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Swingler

I beg to move, Amendment No. 52, in page 25, line 27 after 'licences)', to insert: 'and of the said subsection (3)'. This Amendment is required to include within the appeals procedure set out in Section 195(1) of the principal Act appeals by holders of Northern Ireland heavy goods vehicle drivers' licences against a disqualification order under the new subsection (3) of this Clause.

Amendment agreed to.