6. Mr. Colin Jacksonasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs if he will arrange for accommodation to be made available to the main African parties from Rhodesia in the Rhodesia office in London.
§ Mr. George ThomasNo, Sir.
Mr. JacksonI thank the Minister for that helpful reply, but would he not agree that a building purporting to represent the territory of Rhodesia in London should have accommodation available for African nationalists who represent far more people than does the Smith régime?
§ Mr. ThomasThe staff at Rhodesia House since I.D.I. merely give assistance of a consular nature to Rhodesian citizens, and give factual information about the country in reply to inquiries.
§ Sir F. BennettIf the Minister should, unhappily, change his mind in regard to the original Answer, may I ask whether he would care, at the same time, to make representations to all the other High Commission offices in London with a 322 view to the various one-party African States allowing Opposition Members access to their Commissions?
§ 21. Mr. Paul B. Roseasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the current effect of sanctions against Rhodesia; and what proposals he has to make these politically effective rather than economically punitive.
§ 28. Sir Knox Cunninghamasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the current effect of sanctions on the economy of Rhodesia.
§ Mr. George ThomasWe estimate that voluntary sanctions had reduced Rhodesia's exports from an annual figure of £143 million in 1965 to about £80 million by the end of 1966.
Mandatory sanctions should reduce Rhodesia's exports by up to a further £30 million.
The whole purpose of our policy is that sanctions should have a political effect, namely, that Rhodesia should be restored to the rule of law.
It would, therefore, be wrong to regard sanctions as having been imposed in any spirit of vindictiveness; rather it is to make the people of Rhodesia realise the importance of returning to constitutional paths.
§ Mr. RoseIs my hon. Friend aware that, among others, the Government of Portugal are conniving at the breach of sanctions through Portuguese East Africa? Would he agree that sanctions can be fully effective and productive only if they are fully enforced and backed up by other means? [HON. MEMBERS: "What means?"] Will my hon. Friend say what steps he is taking to ensure that the spirit of the United Nations resolution is carried out by all nations?
§ Mr. ThomasGovernments are required to inform the Secretary-General of the United Nations by tomorrow of the measures which they have taken, and the Secretary-General will report to the Security Council by 1st March concerning progress in enforcing sanctions.
§ Sir Knox CunninghamWhen does the hon. Gentleman expect sanctions to end—in three, five or ten years—and, when 323 the end comes, what conditions will Her Majesty's Government expect to find in Rhodesia?
§ Mr. ThomasI only wish that I could tell the hon. and learned Gentleman the answer. We hope that sanctions will be ended as soon as possible, with Rhodesia returning to constitutional rule.
§ Mr. Alexander W. LyonWill my hon. Friend consider issuing a White Paper setting out the Government's information about the effectiveness of sanctions? If any evaluation is to be made of their effectiveness as against the effectiveness of other methods—for instance, the use of force—it is essential that the House should have all the facts before it.
§ Mr. ThomasWe must wait until 1st March, when the Secretary-General will know from the Governments concerned in the United Nations the extent to which sanctions are observed.
§ Mr. WoodDoes not the recent statement of the Swiss Government underline the difficulty of making effective this policy of mandatory sanctions? Secondly, will the hon. Gentleman confirm or deny that the Government recently told other Commonwealth countries that the cost to the British balance of payments would be something like £80 million a year? If so, could not this information have been given to the House of Commons?
§ Mr. ThomasI am in no position this afternoon to confirm or deny what the right hon. Gentleman seems to have heard about conversations with Commonwealth Governments. In reply to the first part of his question, it is, of course, made more difficult to impose mandatory sanctions if everyone does not observe them. This is self-evident. We are hoping for, and I believe that we will receive, overwhelming support from the United Nations countries in the application of mandatory sanctions.
§ Mr. SandysA very serious charge is being made and the Minister must reply. Does he deny that the British Government have given to Commonwealth Governments a much higher estimate of the cost of sanctions to Britain than they have given to Parliament?
§ Mr. ThomasMy right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, my right 324 hon. Friend the Commonwealth Secretary——
§ Mr. SandysAnswer.
§ Mr. ThomasI am answering. The right hon. Gentleman's privilege is to ask the question. It is my privilege to answer as I want to answer. My right hon. Friends have already dealt with this question and I can add nothing further.
§ 22. Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs whether it is part of the Government's policy of sanctions to reduce food production in Rhodesia.
§ Mr. George ThomasThe object of sanctions in the agricultural sector is to deny Rhodesia overseas markets and foreign exchange so long as unconstitutional rule persists. Whether this leads to a reduction in food production or the reverse depends on the alternative uses to which resources hitherto devoted to export crops are put.
§ Mr. Biggs-DavisonSince the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Attorney-General have contradicted each other in this House about remittances from the Freedom from Hunger Campaign to Rhodesia, will the hon. Gentleman now give an assurance that funds may be remitted to Rhodesia for the improvement of African agriculture?
§ Mr. ThomasPerhaps I may apologise to the House. It was I who gave the information to my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General, who was speaking at the Box. I supplied him with the information, which showed that I had been in my office only a month and I ought to have known better. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had indeed been considering it. The answer now is that further representations have been received from the Freedom from Hunger Campaign and are being considered.
§ Sir C. OsborneWould not the Minister agree that any settlement that is imposed at the point of the sword cannot endure?
§ Mr. ThomasThe hon. Gentleman's interest in theology is similar to my own. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer the question."] It is a very general question. [An HON. MEMBER: "Do not wriggle."] Of 325 course I am wriggling. It is a wriggling sort of question.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I called Lord Balniel for another wriggling question.
§ Lord BalnielThe Minister's answer epitomises the Government. I should like to ask him a rather blunt question on the policy of sanctions. Does he recollect that Lord Caradon said at the United Nations that action under Chapter VII of the Charter could be taken only
when an immediate threat of hostilities exists"?While I deplore many aspects of the setup in Rhodesia, may I ask what is the immediate threat of hostilities which exists?
§ Mr. ThomasThe House has gone over and over this question. The noble Lord knows that the answer has been given so often that it would be unfair of me to repeat it.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The Question is about the effect of sanctions on food production.
§ 26. Mr. John Leeasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the circumstances leading to the illegal expulsion from Rhodesia of certain members of the staff of the British Broadcasting Corporation on 31st January.
§ Mr. George ThomasI understand that three members of the B.B.C. were informed on their arrival at Salisbury airport on 30th January that they were prohibited immigrants. After being held in a police station overnight, they boarded a plane for South Africa. The illegal régime later announced that the B.B.C. had earlier been required to remove their personnel from Rhodesia and that, if the B.B.C. chose to ignore the wishes of the régime, the régime would
not admit itinerant personnel and thus allow the B.B.C. to further their campaign against Rhodesia".I am sure all members of the House will regret this further example of the régime's attitude to those concerned with reporting events in Rhodesia.
§ Mr. LeeWhile thanking my hon. Friend for that Answer, may I draw his attention to his earlier Answer with 326 regard to Rhodesia House? Does not this suggest that it is rather silly to allow the illegal régime's personnel to continue to be represented in Rhodesia House?
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. We cannot go back on Questions.
§ Mr. Ronald BellIs the Minister aware that the B.B.C. has been grossly biased in its reporting of the dispute between the Prime Minister and the Rhodesian Government? Will he not get over all these problems of illegality which have been raised by according long overdue recognition to the de facto Government of Rhodesia? [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."]
§ Mr. ThomasAt least, the hon. and learned Member makes it clear that he is Mr. Smith's man on this question. We consider that the B.B.C. has behaved with impartiality. As the House knows, the B.B.C. is not controlled in any way by Her Majesty's Government and the reputation of the B.B.C. over the world for giving news correctly is such that the hon. and learned Member should be ashamed of the slur which he has cast.
§ 29. Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs what financial assistance the Government has given the British Broadcasting Corporation for the dissemination in Rhodesia of information about its World Service and African Service transmissions to Rhodesia.
§ Mrs. HartThe B.B.C. is responsible for originating all its publicity. At the Corporation's request the British Government paid for the postage of B.B.C. pamphlets containing information about the services mentioned.
§ Mr. Biggs-DavisonCan the hon. Lady say how much it is costing to send all these leaflets by first-class airmail to members of the Rhodesia public? Will the Government seriously try again to reach a settlement so that the B.B.C. can be released from these hole and corner, cloak and dagger operations and get back the freedom of the Rhodesia air?
§ Mrs. HartWere I to give the hon. Gentleman the answer which he wants, the régime would know how many pamphlets were dispatched. We do not choose that they should know that. May 327 I add, in suport of my hon. Friend's remarks in reply to a previous Question, that, whereas one can well understand the eagerness with which many hon. Gentlemen opposite accept the censorship imposed by the régime in Rhodesia, it is difficult to understand why they resist the spread of truth.
§ Mr. Biggs-DavisonOn a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. Is it in order for the hon. Lady to suggest that hon. Members like myself support Rhodesia censorship—[Interruption.] When I was in Salisbury, I went to see the Minister responsible for the censorship to give him my views upon the undesirable nature of that censorship.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I have heard nothing out of order.