Unpaid Fines

HC Deb 06 December 1967 vol 755 cc1417-9

8. Mr. Stodart

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland, in view of the observations made by the Lord Justice Clerk in a recent case to the effect that a person who was convicted of carrying an offensive weapon over a year ago and fined £100 has only paid 30s. so far, if he will take steps, by legislation or otherwise, to deal with the problem of unpaid fines.

The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Norman Buchan)

The present legislation on the enforcement of fines was introduced by the previous Government as lately as 1963. The courts have powers under that Act to enforce the fines they impose.

Mr. Stodart

Is the Minister aware that the public will feel considerable dismay at that Answer? Does he agree that such offences must be matched by severity of sentence, and that if the efforts of the judges in that direction are stultified the legislation in question will have no effect?

Mr. Buchan

There is no reason to say that they are stultified. On the contrary, a high percentage of the fines have been paid. The courts have methods by which they can enforce payment. In the case commented on, a warrant had already been issued for the person's detention in a young offenders' institution.

9. Mr. Stodart

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that £146,000 is outstanding in fines imposed in the cities of Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dundee and Aberdeen; how much of this sum consists of fines being paid in instalments; how much is classified as being overdue t and how this figure compares with that of one year ago and two years ago, respectively.

Mr. Buchan

I do not have this information.

Mr. Stodart

I thank the Minister for sending me a copy of the letter to say that he did not have the information. Is it not a fact that legislation which the right hon. Gentleman is on the record as describing as desirable at the time is being circumvented, and the law being brought into total disrepute, by fines being disregarded in this way?

Mr. Buchan

As I said before there is no question of the fines being disregarded. A very high percentage is paid. Very often hon. Members opposite are confused between outstanding and overdue fines. Some are being paid by instalments and hon. Members consider them as if they had been going by default, but that is not the case.

Mr. Noble

But if the Minister does not have the facts, how can he be so definite about what the position is?

Mr. Buchan

We have facts for the year on particular courts. The point is that I am not prepared to ask all the courts of Scotland, involved as they are in dealing with the present situation, to put in the necessary effort to make that kind of statistical account thus taking up time that could be devoted to more important jobs. The courts have the necessary statistics to keep an eye on the individual offender to ensure that a fine is being paid.

Mr. Dewar

Will my hon. Friend confirm again that the courts have power to imprison for non-payment of fines? Does he agree that they are rightly using that power very sparingly as it also victimises the families of the men concerned and ultimately places a greater financial burden on the State than if the fine had been paid?

Mr. Buchan

The courts have power to imprison, and my hon. Friend is correct in saying that it would throw an extra imposition on the taxpayers if the people concerned were imprisoned for default. The proportion who have had to be imprisoned in recent years is about 3 or 4 per cent.

34. Mr. Clark Hutchison

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what percentage of the £121,000 of fines outstanding in Glasgow was imposed in connection with the carrying of offensive weapons and the committing of a breach of the peace, respectively.

Mr. Buchan

I do not have this information.

Mr. Clark Hutchison

I recognise that it might be difficult to get the figures, but does the hon. Gentleman realise that there are six people in Edinburgh and seven in Glasgow attached to the Sheriff Clerk's Office engaged in collecting fines which are not paid? The situation is intolerable, and it is wrong that criminals who go about with offensive weapons should not pay the penalty when it is imposed on them.

Mr. Buchan

First, I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman is so critical about an Act introduced by his own party. Secondly, there is no evidence that the officials are not functioning properly in ensuring that fines are paid. Thirdly, I do not propose to impose additional burdens on the already overburdened courts by breaking down this kind of statistical information which does not assist the courts in tackling the problem to which the hon. Gentleman refers, namely, enforcing payment of fines.