Crime

HC Deb 06 December 1967 vol 755 cc1434-8

28. Mr. Monro

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to combat the rising crime wave in Scotland.

39. Mr. Galbraith

asked the Secretary of the State for Scotland, in view of the observations of judges of the High Court in Scotland in recent cases, what measures he intends to take to deal with the rapid increase in the use of lethal weapons.

55. Mr. Rankin

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what consideration he has given to Lord Cameron's recommendations in the High Court on the need for more adequate protection of the community against physical attack, and interference with their lawful activities; and what steps he proposes taking to ensure their greater safety.

Mr. Buchan

I would refer the hon. Gentlemen to the Answer I gave on 29th November to a similar Question by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor).—[Vol. 755, c.106–71]

Mr. Monro

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the demand by the Scottish public that the Secretary of State should take drastic action against thugs? When will he do something about it?

Mr. Buchan

We are doing a great deal about it. I think that the hon. Gentleman is referring to the specific question, which is a request by Glasgow magistrates and police for extended powers of arrest. There is a recognition everywhere of the gravity of this problem, but a recognition of the gravity of the problem should not lead us to believe that there is any easy panacea to solve it, and it is a solution with which I am concerned.

Mr. Galbraith

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that distinguished judges of the High Court have said that something ought to be done? Instead of the pious words which we get from the Government, will he get a move on and see that the magistrates in Glasgow are given the powers for which they have rightly asked?

Mr. Buchan

If the hon. Gentleman had studied the subject a little more closely, including the remarks attributed to the learned judge, he would have realised that there were two different things. The judge had been referring to an extremely serious case in the High Court at Edinburgh. The issue which we discussed with the magistrates related to the carrying of offensive weapons.

Mr. Rankin

Will my hon. Friend assure us that the recommendations which the Glasgow magistrates may ultimately make, if they are not in his hands now, will have his sympathetic support?

Mr. Buchan

For some time my right hon. Friend and I have been giving sympathetic consideration to the request for extended powers of arrest for the carrying of offensive weapons The request has been in our hands for some time. The problem is not just to recognise that we are facing a difficult problem but to decide whether this is the best method of dealing with it.

Sir M. Galpern

Is not my hon. Friend aware that in recent years many investigations and surveys have been undertaken, conclusions reached and recommendations made, and that this new proposal is merely a delaying exercise in face of a situation which requires urgent action?

Mr. Buchan

I do not follow the drift of that argument; the end seemed to contradict the beginning. I am aware of most of the surveys of recent years. They all show one thing—that there is no easy panacea and that we are dealing not only with a very important problem of crime, but with a deep-seated social problem. We have to deal with it in that way as well as dealing with this request. For example, we have to ask ourselves about the effect on the relationship between the police and the community, a very important question which could be affected by every other decision.

Mrs. Ewing

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that the best step which he could take to combat the rising crime wave' would be to seek to get the police force up to strength—it is now 984 men short and housing is the great factor in attracting men into the police service?

Mr. Buchan

I am well aware of that. There is a later Question on that subject.

Mr. Noble

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that, although this is a difficult problem, it contains urgent factors which make it absolutely necessary for the Government to take, perhaps short-term, but decisive action?

Mr. Buchan

It is because of our recognition of that that my right hon. Friend has asked me to accept special responsibility in this matter. As the right hon. Gentleman should know, starting this Friday we are having discussions precisely around these points and going even more deeply into the problem with the Glasgow magistrates and police.

Mr. Dempsey

Is my hon. Friend aware that the problem goes much further than the City of Glasgow and that it is well known that in industrial thoroughfares criminals convicted of violence are strutting about with hatchets in their pockets? Would he not agree that the intentions of these people are not very honourable? Why should not the police have powers to deal with the situation?

Mr. Buchan

The police have full powers to deal with this situation.

Mr. Dempsey

They have not.

Mr. Buchan

The police have full and absolute powers to deal with this situation.

Mr. Dempsey

No.

Mr. Buchan

I do not know how often I have to repeat it, but it is a matter of fact that the legislation of 1953 gives the police full and absolute power to arrest when they have reasonable cause to believe that these weapons may be used. I assure my hon. Friend that if he tries to go along Sauchiehall Street with a hatchet, he will find out whether we have these powers.

Mr. Monro

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of those replies, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

37. Mr. MacArthur

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to provide further assistance to the police so as to increase the crime detection rate.

Mr. Buchan

Crime detection is an operational matter which is the responsibility of individual chief constables. Two proposals that should help have recently been approved by the Police Advisory Board for Scotland, namely, the setting up of a Scottish Crime Squad and the establishment of a National Forensic Science Laboratory.

Mr. MacArthur

Would the hon. Gentleman give further and more serious thought to the proposal that the police should have powers to search people suspected of carrying offensive weapons, thus extending the power which they have already in relation to firearms? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that for every 37 criminals caught 63 go scot-free? Would he agree that this suggested power would help to nip crime in the bud.

Mr. Buchan

That has absolutely nothing to do with the Question. I have been asked about detection rates. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to make a new proposition about powers of search, which have not been asked for by the Glasgow police, I shall be willing to answer his question.

Mr. Willis

Would my hon. Friend say to what extent the traffic warden system has been extended and traffic duties have been taken over by traffic wardens to enable more police to attend to the job of crime detection? This seems a way of enabling more men to be on the job.

Mr. Buchan

The system has been extended considerably especially in the Glasgow area. I am considering sympathetically a fresh request for 100 additional traffic wardens in Glasgow. The system is being extended elsewhere. It will be of immense assistance in releasing the police for other duties.