HC Deb 04 December 1967 vol 755 cc958-63
Mr. Edward M. Taylor (by Private Notice)

asked the Minister of Transport what effect the work to rule by members of A.S.L.E.F. has had on the services provided by British Rail; and what plans she has to minimise the hardship and inconvenience that passengers and industry will experience as a result of this dispute.

The Minister of Transport (Mrs. Barbara Castle)

It is too early to make a full assessment. The situation this morning was that over 100 passenger trains were cancelled on Southern Region, and there was some late running. In other regions the effect has not so far become serious.

In London and other conurbations a series of special arrangements was made in advance to facilitate the in-flow and out-flow of rush-hour car traffic such as freeways for tidal flows. Extra car parking space was made available and many parking meter restrictions were relaxed. Any necessary relaxations of licensing and other restrictions on freight and passenger traffic by road will be introduced as demanded by the situation as it develops.

Mr. Taylor

As the travelling public will inevitably suffer severe hardship, will the right hon. Lady inform people in each locality, by leaflet, through the Press and the television, if need be, of the precise state of the situation locally, the trains which are running and the alternative services available? As A.S.L.E.F.'s Scottish organiser said last night that his aim is to create chaos, will consideration now be given by the Government to taking emergency powers? Is she further aware that the greatest contribution she can make to a long-term solution of the problem is to remove forthwith the uncertainty over the chairmanship of the British Railways Board, which has dragged on for so many weeks?

Mrs. Castle

A great deal of information is already given daily over the radio about the position. I will consider whether anything more can be done.

The hon. Gentleman asked about emergency powers. It is not for me to speculate about a possible Government decision. I am not prepared to go further than I have done already in my statement.

The hon. Gentleman's point about the chairmanship has no relationship to what he said in the rest of his supplementary question. Sir Stanley Raymond's resignation does not become operative until the end of the year. He is still carrying out his responsibilities for the Board's affairs.

Mr. Manuel

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Minister of Labour hardened the position and fomented feelings by his silly statement about A.S.L.E.F.'s intentions previous to negotiations starting? Is she further aware that the deliberate exclusion of A.S.L.E.F. from the negotiations during the guards dispute directly resulted in the guards being placed on the footplate without consultation with A.S.L.E.F.? This is quite inexcusable, of course, and shows quite conclusively a lack of managerial ability on the railways.

Mrs. Castle

I am sorry, but I cannot agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Manuel) that either my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour's statement to the House on Thursday or his broadcast last night were provocative. I think that he set out the position with great objectivity and feelings and I stand by what he said.

Mr. Peter Walker

Is the right hon. Lady aware that we on this side fully support the Minister of Labour in the attitude he has taken on this problem and also join him in deploring the irresponsibility of this go-slow and the effect it will have on the travelling public? Will she assure the House that there will be no delay on the Government's part in taking emergency powers if they are necessary and that every possible facility will be given to keeping vital services and exports going.

Mrs. Castle

It is the Government's intention to see that vital services are maintained. As I have said, we will take such steps as are necessary in the situation as it develops, but I still hope that there may be a possibility of A.S.L.E.F. members themselves realising that this development cannot do any good to them and certainly not to the policy of stability for the railways that I am so anxious to introduce.

Mr. Lubbock

Is the right hon. Lady aware that the ovefwhelming majority of the people, including the passengers, who will suffer most from this dispute, will support the Minister of Labour in the attitude he has taken to the dispute?

Mr. Manuel

What do you know about it?

Mr. Lubbock

Is the right hon. Lady also aware that this problem—

Mr. Manuel

Sit down.

Mr. Lubbock

—is much more acute for the people of Greater London than for the people of Glasgow?

Mr. Rankin

Leave Glasgow out of it.

Mr. Lubbock

Is the right hon. Lady—

Mr. Rankin

Mr. Speaker—

Mr. Lubbock

—satisfied that the measures—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I suspect that I am being addressed on a point of order.

Mr. Rankin

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. My hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Manuel), for whom I have great friendship, does not represent Glasgow. I have something to say on that.

Mr. Speaker

That is a point of information, not of order.

Mr. Lubbock

I am asking whether the right hon. Lady is satisfied that the measures she has already taken to ensure the free flow of traffic in the Greater London area are sufficient? The emergency clearways seemed to be working very well this morning. Will she advise people whether it is necessary for them to take their cars if they want to be certain of keeping an appointment in London, or whether they can rely on the railway service?

Mrs. Castle

I think the House will agree that the arrangements which were made in advance have worked very smoothly this morning. That is a matter for congratulation to all concerned. I will, of course, continue to watch the situation. I will certainly give any advice which I think will help people who have got to get into work.

Mr. Mapp

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that her right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour was to have had a meeting of some significance tomorrow? Will she press her right hon. Friend to rearrange that meeting if possible so that the opportunities for conciliation will be present throughout this difficulty?

Mrs. Castle

No one regrets more than my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and myself the fact that obviously progress cannot, in the present situation, be made with the talks, which again can make a vital contribution to the solution of the problems of the railways.

Sir G. Nabarro

Could the right hon. Lady make it clear, in view of the grave threat in the movement of freight to the docks for export, that if this go-slow continues for longer than three days she will remove all restrictions on the use of C licence vehicles in plying for hire and reward, thereby enabling more than 1 million road vehicles to carry additional goods to the docks for export and thereby offsetting this go-slow on the railways?

Mrs. Castle

This is the same point as the point that has previously been raised. The effect on freight has not so far been serious, but, of course, there is a danger of a cumulative build-up if the dispute continues. I can only repeat what I have already said, that the Government are watching the situation and will take any steps they think necessary as the situation develops.

Mr. Spriggs

Is my right hon. Friend aware that rather than sharpen the knives ready for battle, we would rather rely on her good offices to bring about industrial peace?

Mrs. Castle

I can assure my hon. Friend that there is certainly no desire on the Government's part to sharpen any knives for battle. All we want is an early settlement on a basis which will enable us to have an effective railway policy in this country.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

In view of the certainty of serious hardship on commuters on the Southern Region tonight, and the desirability on traffic grounds of making as much use as possible of public service transport on the roads, will she take action today to grant licences in the London area to bus operators who are prepared to run services in and out of central London?

Mrs. Castle

I do not think it is possible for that to be done quite off the cuff as the right hon. Gentleman suggests.

Mr. Bidwell

Will my right hon. Friend not agree that when the Minister of Labour takes a one-sided view in a major industrial dispute he is doing more harm than good? Is it not a fact that in this case Mr. Albert Griffiths, the General Secretary of A.S.L.E.F., pleaded for just a little more time so that the matter of the manning agreement could be thoroughly discussed? Was it not worth waiting a few more weeks rather than helping to precipitate such a catastrophe?

Mrs. Castle

It is, of course, for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour to answer for himself, as he did on television yesterday and in the House on Thursday of last week. I think that he made perfectly clear why the dispute occurred and how much we all regret it.

Mr. Goodhart

As regular commuters will be particularly hard hit if this disruption continues, will the right hon. Lady consider asking British Railways to extend the period for which current season tickets are valid?

Mrs. Castle

I will certainly consider that point and see whether it has any relevance to the difficulties.

Mr. Tinn

Will my right hon. Friend tell us what was the urgency that apparently compelled British Railways to withdraw the coaches in advance of negotiations with A.S.L.E.F.? Surely it is unreasonable to expect the union to enter into negotiations after this action has already been taken?

Mrs. Castle

British Railways are responsible for these industrial matters. I think that we can rest on the inside knowledge and the judgment of the Railways Board, and, in particular, on its industrial relations man, Mr. Neal.

Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop

Since the right hon. Lady is Minister of Transport, can she tell us where the division of responsibility in this matter lies between her and the Minister of Labour?

Mrs. Castle

The position is that, as Minister of Transport, I have to take what steps I can to maintain the mobility of our people in such situations, but matters of industrial conciliation are, of course, for my right hon. Friend.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. Mr. Fred Mulley, Statement.