Clause 3.—(ACTS CAUSING OR LIKELY TO RESULT IN DAMAGE TO LISTED BUILDINGS.) (Hansard, 14 April 1967)

§ Dr. Dickson Mabon
I beg to move Amendment No. 58, in page 3, line 20, to leave out from first 'of' to 'and' in line 21 and to insert 'excepted works)'.

§ Mr. Speaker
With this Amendment, it is proposed that we take Amendment No. 59, in page 3, line 23, at end insert: (2) In subsection (1) of this section `excepted works' means works authorised by planning permission granted or deemed to be granted in pursuance of an application under the Planning Act and works of which notice has been given in pursuance of section 33 of that Act or which are lawful by virtue of subsection (2) of that section. Amendment No. 2, in line 29, at end insert: (3) The provisions of this section shall not apply to any works or actions carried out under a planning permission granted or deemed to be granted by the Planning Act or the Scottish Planning Act or any regulations made under either of such Acts. Amendment No. 60, in line 30, leave out from 'Scotland' to end of line 34 and insert:

(a) in subsection (1) for the references to sections 30(2) and 32 of the Planning Act there shall be substituted respectively references to the proviso to section 27(1) and section 28(1) of the Scottish Planning Acts;

(b) in subsection (2) for the references to the Planning Act, section 33, and subsection (2) of section 33 of the Planning Act, there shall be substituted respectively references to the Scottish Planning Act, section 28(6) and the proviso to section 28(6) of the Scottish Planning Act.

§ Dr. Mabon
I am obliged, Mr. Speaker.
Amendments Nos. 58, 59 and 60, which hang together as one, can be taken with Amendment No. 2, in the name of the hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page), which is, I presume, an alternative to the case put by the Government.
The Clause is intended to penalise minor acts of wilful damage to listed 1523 buildings, not amounting to works of alteration or extension which are controlled under Section 33 of the 1962 Act. Amendment No. 2 is right in proposing that the Clause should not apply to works for which planning permission has been expressly given, but this should not include the wide variety of works which have the blanket provision under the General Development Order. The sponsors of the Bill would, I think, agree that to except these would largely defeat the purpose of the Clause.
General development orders, in both countries, cover just the sort of acts which the Clause is intended to prevent, for example, the removal of tiles from a roof. The fact that an act of this kind is within the scope of the general development order does not necessarily make it legitimate in the case of a listed building. It would also be desirable to exclude from the Clause works of the kind mentioned in Section 33(2) of the 1962 Act, that is, works which are urgently necessary in the interests of safety or health.
The hon. Member for Crosby has been good enough to table Amendment No. 2, with the best of intentions. Both the points which are valid in his proposition are covered by Amendments Nos. 58, 59 and 60. The Government have deliberately put down these Amendments to take up the value of the point made by the hon. Member rather than accept his Amendment, which is good in parts, but, generally, is unacceptable.
As the hon. Member was a little delayed in joining us in this discussion, perhaps I may say to him that if we were to accept completely his Amendment—I concede the first point that he is right in proposing that the Clause should not apply to works for which planning permission has been expressly given, but this should not include the wide variety of works which have blanket provision under a general development order—would largely defeat the purpose of the Clause.
I believe, although I do not want to mobilise opinion too harshly against the hon. Member, that the sponsors of the Bill support the Government in accepting part of the point made by the hon. Member, but not the whole of his Amendment. I hope, therefore, that he will not press his Amendment, but will 1524 recognise that there is value in Amendments Nos. 58 to 60 as an alternative to his proposition.

§ Mr. Speaker
May I remind the hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page), to give him time to collect his thoughts, that with Amendments Nos. 58, 59 and 60 we are also discussing his Amendment 2.

§ Mr. Graham Page (Crosby)
I am grateful, Mr. Speaker. I am never uncorrected, but I apologise to you and to the House for arriving rather late for the Amendment.
I am grateful to the Minister of State for putting down his Amendment. I know that it is not as wide as mine, but it will carry out the intentions which I had in mind in Amendment 2. I need not say anything further. I am grateful to the Minister for the proper drafting of what I intended.