Clause 95.—(APPLICATION TO SCOTLAND.) (Hansard, 27 October 1966)

§ The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Dr. J. Dickson Mabon)
I beg to move Amendment No. 112, in page 87, line 40, after 'substituted', to insert: (i) except in the case mentioned in subparagraph (ii) below. It might be for the convenience of the House if we considered Amendment No. 113 at the same time, Sir.

§ Mr. Speaker
If there is no objection, so be it.

§ Dr. Mabon
The effect of the Amendments is to provide that during the period before a Lands Tribunal for Scotland is established, a dispute about whether a particular body is entitled to exemption as a charity under Clause 57 will be referred for decision not to an arbiter appointed under the Land Compensation Act, but to the Court of Session.
There are several categories of case that are referred under the Bill to the Lands Tribunal in England and Wales. Those include all disputes about whether betterment levy should or should not be paid. In most cases, the matters at issue will be matters of valuation which can suitably be disposed of by the Lands Tribunal in England and Wales, and in Scotland, where there is no comparable body, these will be referred to arbiters appointed under the Land Compensation Act. In the case of charities, however, the ground of objection to payment of betterment levy might be whether the body making the objection was or was not a charity.
That, of course, is a legal question. While it can suitably be dealt with in England or Wales by the Lands Tribunal, which includes lawyers, it could not be suitably dealt with by Scottish arbiters, who are surveyors or valuers. The suggestion of the Amendments is to meet the point that there should be a 1432 special arrangement for settling questions of this kind by the Court of Session.
As to the establishment of a Lands Tribunal for Scotland, that is a matter which is being discussed.

§ Sir D. Walker-Smith
Will the hon. Gentleman inform the House, first, when he expects there to be a Lands Tribunal for Scotland? We have had a Lands Tribunal in England for 17 years. It has functioned very well, and gained a very high reputation, and it is not customary for Scotland to lag 17 years behind England. Can the hon. Gentleman say how soon Scotland intends to follow the good example of England and set up a Lands Tribunal?
Secondly, as the hon. Gentleman has explained, these matters will have to come to the Court of Session because the arbiters are not lawyers, and presumably, though the hon. Gentleman did not say so, cannot have the benefit of a legal assessor to sit with them. If they could have the benefit in Scotland of a legal assessor, then it would not be necessary, presumably, to legislate to send the matter to the Court of Session.
That leads me to my final question. What will be the effect of this addition to their duties on the lists of the Court of Session? Is there a great delay? I do not know. Members of the English Bar have no right of audience in the Court of Session. It is a restrictive practice which operates against us. Even those who, like myself, have the honour to have been born in Scotland, have no right of audience. We do not know whether there is a great pressure on the lists in the Court of Session. Can the hon. Gentleman say whether this will add to it, and, if so, what he proposes to do about it?

§ Dr. Dickson Mabon
I do not want to get involved in a discussion about restrictive practices in the legal profession. I take it from the right hon. and learned Gentleman's complaint that audience is granted to Scottish advocates in English courts, a matter which surprises me. If there is no complaint in the matter, I would not like to be dragged into a discussion about equity between the two countries.

§ Sir D. Walker-Smith
The only time we meet on common ground is before the Appeal Committee of the House of Lords.

§ Dr. Dickson Mabon
So much for the restrictive practices for which we are not responsible.
Perhaps I might now answer the two fair points made by the right hon. and learned Gentleman. As he knows, the Secretary of State for Scotland acts not only on the advice of the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor-General, but, in many cases, in conjunction with the Lord President of the Court of Session. As such, the Lord President's position has to be fully preserved and respected.
We cannot resolve this question until both parties are agreed on the setting up of a lands tribunal, and this matter, if I might put it rather delicately, is still under discussion. When the discussion ends—I hope that it will be a fruitful one, for there is no doubt about where my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State stands in this matter—we may see a lands tribunal being set up. The purpose of the two Amendments is to bridge the temporary situation before such a tribunal is created.
On the second point, I am advised that valuers and surveyors are appointed under the Land Compensation Act. The point suggested by the right hon. and learned Gentleman about assessors is a novel one, but might not carry the endorsement of the Lord President of the Court of Session. He is agreeable to our proposal, and has taken steps to see that this can be serviced if the House agrees with the Amendment. I hope that I have satisfied the right hon. and learned Gentleman.