HC Deb 27 October 1966 vol 734 cc1305-15
Mr. Heath

May I ask the Leader of the House to state the business of the House for next week?

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Richard Crossman)

Yes, Sir, The business for next week will be as follows:

MONDAY, 31ST OCTOBER—Third Reading of the Land Commission Bill, until seven o'clock.

Afterwards, debate on the Opposition Motion on the Conduct of the Home Secretary.

Motion on the Torbay Order.

TUESDAY, 1ST NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the National Coal Board (Additional Powers) Bill and of the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill.

Motion on the Building Control (Cost Limit Exemption) Order.

WEDNESDAY, 2ND NOVEMBER—Remaining stages of the Armed Forces Bill and of the Barbados Independence Bill.

Motions on the Greenwich Hospital and Travers' Foundation Accounts and on the Electricity (Borrowing Powers) Orders.

THURSDAY, 3RD NOVEMBER—Supply [2nd Allotted Day]: Committee, which if agreed to, will be taken formally to allow debate on an Opposition Motion on Agriculture.

FRIDAY, 4TH NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Education Bill and, if there is time, of the Family Provision Bill [Lords].

MONDAY, 7TH NOVEMBER—The proposed business will be: Second Reading of the Road Safety Bill.

Afterwards, as the House is aware, the Chairman of Ways and Means has put down opposed Private Business.

Motion on the Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income) (Switzerland) Order.

Mr. Heath

Is the Leader of the House aware that, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) said the other day, we shall want to have the opportunity of discussing any Orders laid under Part IV of the Prices and Incomes Act and discussing them as the first Order of the Day, not late at night or at a time which is inconvenient for the House?

Secondly, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it has now become extremely urgent that the position in Gibraltar should be cleared up? It is most uncertain as a result of the confusion created by the Secretary of State for the Colonies this week. Will the Leader of the House give an undertaking that the Colonial Secretary will make a full and clear statement on this matter as soon as possible next week?

Mr. Crossman

I will certainly bear in mind the importance which the Opposition attach to that question of Orders under the Prices and Incomes Act. It will be discussed through the usual channels. The Foreign Secretary will be answering a Question on Gibraltar on Monday.

Mr. Heath

These. Orders are of much wider interest than merely to the Opposition. They are of immense interest to a very considerable section of the right hon. Gentleman's party.

Mr. Crossman

I appreciate that and I simply said that I think we had better discuss it. They will be there for some months and we ought to discuss them and form a regular way of dealing with them.

Miss Lestor

Has the attention of my right hon. Friend been drawn to Motion No. 208, standing in my name— That, in view of the fresh evidence now available, this House urges the Home Secretary to hold an immediate inquiry into the Hanratty murder case— signed by more than 40 Members? Can my right hon. Friend say whether he will be giving time to debate this Motion in the near future, or if he has any knowledge that the Home Secretary is likely to make a statement on the matter?

Mr. Crossman

I understand that the latest representations about the case are still under consideration and that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary will then decide whether an inquiry would be justified.

Sir C. Osborne

As a matter of urgency, will the Leader of the House find time next week to discuss the representations which the T.U.C. leaders made two days ago to the Prime Minister about the 1 million unemployed which they fear there will be after Christmas, and the reply which the Prime Minister has given to the T.U.C.'s leaders? Will he regard this as the most urgent matter facing the the nation?

Mr. Crossman

We had discussions this week, on Monday and Tuesday, closely related to this matter. I do not think that I can give any assurances that next week we can have further discussion.

Mr. Coe

Will my right hon. Friend clarify the Answer he gave me last week on the desirability of an early debate on local government reform? The Answer given in the OFFICIAL REPORT seems to be at variance with what I recollect he said on that occasion.

Mr. Crossman

I did not notice that in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I think that I must have been misheard. What I said was that there was plenty of time for a debate on local government. Since my hon. Friend raised the question last week there have been developments and that the Local Government (Termination of Reviews) Bill is to be presented today. I very much hope that we shall be able to take the Second Reading in the next few weeks. It may well be that the point my hon. Friend has in mind will—subject to your views, Mr. Speaker—be in order on that occasion.

Mr. Webster

When will the Government provide time for a debate on a Motion, which refers to the crass incompetence of the Government in failing to have an authorised Minister present for a Second Reading of a Bill? This was the Road Traffic Bill Second Reading Committee, if the Leader of the House is not aware of the fact, as appears to be the case. Will he take the opportunity, in his desire for the reform of Parliament, to make sure that in the meantime Parliament does not become simply a rubber stamp for the Executive?

Mr. Crossman

I really can assure the House that no discourtesy to the Committee was intended. I believe apologies were made for the inconvenience caused to hon. Members concerned. I hope that the Committee will be able to proceed normally next week.

Mr. Michael Foot

Referring to the question put down by my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough (Miss Lestor) on the Hanratty case, will my right hon. Friend take into account that if, according to the evidence, it proves correct that there has been a miscarriage of justice, the very gravest implications are involved? Will he also take into account that the Home Secretary, I believe, himself said some years ago that he believed that an inquiry was necessary and urgent?

There should be the earliest possible statement to the House—we hope accepting the proposal for an inquiry—but if the Home Secretary does not find that possible immediately will my right hon. Friend make arrangements for a debate in the House so that representations may be made on this extremely important matter?

Mr. Crossman

I do not want to mislead the House, but I think that the first and most important thing is that all representations should be considered fully by the Home Secretary before he makes up his mind. Directly after that he will make a statement giving a decision on whether he thinks that an inquiry is justified or not. We can look at the question of a debate and consider it then.

Mr. Hastings

The Leader of the House has now had 24 hours to think over what the right hon. Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss) said to him yesterday on the question of Parliamentary reform. Cannot he give us a date for this debate? Does he not now agree that the question of the effective control over the executive by Parliament is a matter principally for Members of Parliament and not for the Executive.

Mr. Crossman

I have nothing to add to what I said last week, either as to the timing of the debate, which will come soon after the debate on television, or on the issue of how the vote is taken.

Mr. Milne

Will my right hon. Friend consider arranging an early debate on the Report of the Geddes Committee and its implications for the shipbuilding industry?

Mr. Crossman

My right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade is proposing to introduce legislation on this matter, and we shall have such a debate on the legislation.

Mr. Sandys

For a number of months hon. Members in different parts of the House have been pressing the Government to make a statement about the results of the exploratory talks between themselves and the Governments of the European Economic Community. Can a full statement on the Government's policy in regard to our joining the Community be made at an early date?

Mr. Crossman

I do not think that there is any prospect of a statement at an early date, but this can be debated, if there is complaint about it, in the two-day debate on foreign affairs which will certainly take place before Christmas.

Mr. Dalyell

In view of my right hon. Friend's answer to me last week, and as hon. Members will now have had time to digest the three important, though brief, reports on science, is there a possibility of an early debate on science policy?

Mr. Crossman

My hon. Friend's digestive capacity for scientific reports is gigantic. I think that we must wait a little. I cannot give him any immediate prospect of a debate.

Mr. Strauss

Has my right hon. Friend studied Motion 215, which is signed by a very large number of Members on this side, about the Government's proposals for procedural reform? If my right hon. Friend cannot make a statement at the moment, or if there is no prospect of a debate, can he say whether he may shortly be able to make a statement showing that the Government accept the principle that any proposals concerning the arrangements by which Members of Parliament carry out their functions in the House must be acceptable to the majority of the House and must not be imposed by the Government with their Whips.

[That this House views with concern the withdrawal by the Leader of the House of his undertaking to allow a free vote on procedural changes in the House because reforms designed to give the House and its back-bench Members more authority are more likely to be achieved if they are carried by a free vote of the House.]

Mr. Crossman

I believe that the arrangements should be acceptable to the majority of the House. What I said was that I could not give a blanket assurance to my right hon. Friend about the kind of vote to be cast on what might well be a very complex mass and whole number of resolutions.

Mr. Peyton

Is the Leader of the House aware that his right hon. Friend the Minister of Power is tyrannically and contumaciously insisting that the Standing Committee dealing with the Iron and Steel Bill should meet for a third time each week on Thursday afternoons, thus preventing hon. Members of the Committee from taking any part whatever in debates on the Floor of the House on Thursday afternoons?

Mr. Crossman

I think that there are precedents under all Governments for Committees whose activities are prolonged meeting in the afternoon. This is a matter for the Standing Committee and not for me.

Mr. Stratton Mills

Was the Leader of the House present at Question Time today when the Minister of State, Board of Trade, said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be making a statement on the serious down-turn in investment in manufacturing industry? Was this a slip of the tongue, or is there a firm commitment by the Government to make a statement?

Mr. Crossman

I think that the hon. Gentleman had better wait and read HANSARD to see exactly what was said in the statement.

Mr. Frank Allaun

How soon may we expect the important Bill providing 4 per cent. subsidies to local authorities and a 2½ per cent. reduction in mortgage interest payments?

Mr. Crossman

The new Housing Bill is now in preparation, and it will not be very long before it will be presented. It will certainly be presented before Christmas.

Mr. Ian Gilmour

Can the right hon. Gentleman add to his reasonably encouraging answer last week on the Government's attitude to the Sexual Offences Bill?

Mr. Crossman

I hope to be able to make a statement next week on precisely what will be done about it.

Mr. Alan Lee Williams

Before we have the promised debate on the Suez operation, will the Leader of the House consult his right hon. Friends to see whether it would be possible for them to produce a White Paper?

Mr. Crossman

I would have thought that we should have a little time for a debate first and consider what to do afterwards.

Sir D. Walker-Smith

Reverting to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton), is there any precedent for introducing an afternoon sitting of a Standing Committee during the sitting hours of the House at the very outset of the proceedings of the Committee?

Mr. Crossman

I should like notice of that question. I should like to look up the precedents. I certainly could not answer that, question about precedents "off the cuff" this afternoon.

Mr. Alexander W. Lyon

In view of the assurance given by the Prime Minister last week that there will be an early statement on the Government's proposals for settling the Rhodesian issue, will the Leader of the House give an undertaking that the House will be allowed to debate the proposals at an early date after the statement is made?

Mr. Crossman

Yes, Sir. I can give an undertaking. There will have to be a debate on Rhodesia anyway before the time runs out at the end of the year. Therefore, we shall have an early debate in any case.

Sir G. Nabarro

Is the Leader of the House aware that I sit for an agricultural constituency of 172,000 acres and that I am deprived, by the squalid tactics of the Minister of Power, of the opportunity of being present for the debate next Thursday afternoon, simply because of the Minister of Power's unprecedented action of putting on a third sitting for the Standing Committee on the Iron and Steel Bill at 4 o'clock on Thursday afternoons? I cannot attend the Standing Committee on the Iron and Steel Bill and participate in the debate on agriculture.

Will the Leader of the House undertake to have this matter examined at an early date so that Members may do their duty to their constituents on the Floor of the House?

Mr. Crossman

As regards the hon. Gentleman representing an agricultural constituency, Thursday is an Opposition day and the subject for debate was selected by the Opposition for next Thursday, not by the Government.

I say again that the Committee's sittings is not a matter for me. It is a matter for the Committee how it arranges its business.

Mr. Heath

The Leader of the House is being too modest. The conduct of all Government business is in his hands, including that in Standing Committees. If he were to tell the Minister of Power that he could have an appropriate time to handle his Bill in Committee, the Minister of Power would not have to make demands which interfere with the attendance of Members at normal debates in the House. Why is it necessary so early in the sessional year to put on the pressure in this way? It is quite indefensible.

Mr. Crossman

The Leader of the Opposition knows full well from his experience in government that it is for the Standing Committee to decide how it does its work.

Mr. Shinwell

My right hon. Friend is constitutionally correct that this is a matter for the Standing Committee, but, after all, Members have a right to be in the House: that is where they are expected to be. To suit the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro), could not my right hon. Friend compromise and have the agricultural debate one morning?

Sir G. Nabarro

rose—

Mr. Crossman

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order.

Sir G. Nabarro

I am sorry, Sir.

Mr. Speaker

The apology is enough.

Mr. Edward M. Taylor

Does the Leader of the House know that it is the experience of members of the Standing Committee not only that their arguments are not answered, but that they are not listened to? Will he at least inquire into the disgraceful tactics of the Minister of Power, who, on Tuesday, introduced a Motion as a result of which we must sit this afternoon in one minute's time?

Mr. Crossman

I will give one assurance. I will make quite sure that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Power reads these exchanges in HANSARD so that he will know the strong feelings which have been represented here. More I cannot do.

Mr. Shinwell

On a point of order. May I have an answer to my question?

Mr. Crossman

There might possibly come a time after Christmas when that possibility becomes a reality, but it is too early to say.

Mr. Winnick

Is the Leader of the House aware that there will be deliberate obstruction on the Iron and Steel Bill?

Mr. Speaker

Order. We are wandering a little from the purpose of business questions.

Mr. Winnick

On a point of order. With all respect to you, Mr. Speaker, you have allowed a question from the opposite side on the Standing Committee on the Iron and Steel Bill.

Mr. Speaker

It is no respect to Mr. Speaker to challenge his Ruling. I must ask the hon. Gentleman to link what he has to say with the business question.

Mr. Winnick

Did the Leader of the House see in the Evening Standard last night that it was announced by a Tory hon. Member that the biggest, bloodiest bunch of hooligans were trying to stop the work on the Steel Bill in Standing Committee? Can my right hon. Friend tell us whether, if the necessity arises, the Guillotine will be used to make sure that the Bill goes through on time?

Mr. Crossman

I did not see this report in the Evening Standard. I should have thought that it would be a matter to report not to me but to Mr. Speaker if something of that sort were said about hon. Members.

Mr. Heath

In reply to the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell), the Leader of the House said that after Christmas it may be possible to take the business of Supply in the mornings. Is he really suggesting that this is what he will propose. Does he realise that if the business of Supply is in the mornings it will come into conflict not only with one Committee, but all the Committees sitting and dealing with legislation? Is this the state to which he proposes to bring the House of Commons?

Mr. Crossman

I am grateful to the Leader of the Opposition. I must say, on reflection, that my desire to please my right hon. Friend went beyond the realms of possibility. I stand corrected.

Mr. Hirst

Is the Leader of the House aware that it is essential that the confused and apparently exceedingly unhappy position of the Colonial Secretary concerning Gibraltar should be cleared up by the responsible Minister, and that it is not enough that that should be dealt with by Question to another Minister, however senior, who cannot be examined by the House in the ordinary way?

Mr. Crossman

I made it clear when I said that on Monday the Foreign Secretary would answer on the question of the Government's policy in Gibraltar. As for the Opposition's desire to censure or attack the Colonial Secretary, it is up to them to do it in their own time.

Mr. Emrys Hughes

Will the Leader of the House give further attention to the very reasonable request from the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) that farming questions are very properly discussed in the early morning because the farmers have to get up early?

Mr. Crossman

I think that I can safely say that I will give it attention.

Mr. Heath

I must press the Leader of the House again. He has just announced that, if a Motion of censure is put down on a Minister—including the Colonial Secretary—it must be taken in the Opposition's time. How long has this doctrine been in force? When a Motion of censure is put down on a Minister, it is always taken in the Government's time. He has just announced this for next Monday evening for a particular Minister, the Home Secretary.

Mr. Crossman

I am surprised at the Leader of the Opposition. He will observe that the Motion about the Home Secretary has the full support of the Opposition Front Bench, and the Motion on the Colonial Secretary does not. By convention, there is a considerable difference in the treatment of the two. I was referring to the Motion which hon. Gentlemen have put down.

Mr. Roebuck

Is the Leader of the House aware that the production of corn in South Worcestershire is so tremendous that there is no need for the presence of the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) in agricultural debates?

Mr. Hector Hughes

Will the Leader of the House find time for a debate upon powers and activities of the Board of Trade under the Merchant Shipping Act, 1964, referred to in Question 6 today, to which the Answer was not satisfactory, and which is very important having regard to certain incidents on the high seas recently?

Mr. Crossman

I shall certainly consider my hon. and learned Friend's wishes, but there is no room for it next week.