HC Deb 28 November 1966 vol 737 cc14-7
19. Mr. Braine

asked the Minister of Social Security whether she will carry out a survey to discover the number of employed persons, whether part time or full time, aged 65 years or over in the case of men and 60 years and over in the case of women, in respect of whom the Selective Employment Tax is payable.

39. Mr. Gower

asked the Minister of Social Security whether she will carry out a survey to discover the number of employed persons, whether part time or full time, aged 65 years or over in the case of men and 60 years and over in the case of women, in respect of whom the Selective Employment Tax is payable.

Mr. Pentland

My right hon. Friend has no special survey of this sort in mind at present.

Mr. Braine

Would the Parliamentary Secretary reconsider this question since one reason for setting up the new Ministry was to ensure better information about elderly people for whom the social security benefits are paid? Surely it should be a matter of concern to his Department that a good many of the elderly people then in work have since lost their jobs as a result of the application of the pernicious Selective Employment Tax? Surely this information should be obtained?

Mr. Pentland

I do not appreciate the hon. Member's supplementary question. We just do not know that yet, and the facts will not become apparent for a long time to come.

Mr. Frederic Harris

Does the Minister seriously tell the House that he does not believe that the effect of Selective Employment Tax is to keep elderly people out of employment? This is a fact, and it is happenng all over the country.

Mr. Pentland

I am here to apply my mind to the facts as they are before me, otherwise the House would call me back to the Question.

20. Mr. Holland

asked the Minister of Social Security how many people have applied for the monthly instead of three-monthly repayment of Selective Employment Tax paid in respect of nursing or domestic assistance in the home for an elderly or disabled person.

30. Mr. Dean

asked the Minister of Social Security how many people have applied for the monthly instead of three-monthly repayment of Selective Employment Tax paid in respect of nursing or domestic assistance in the home for an elderly or disabled person.

43 and 46. Miss Pike

asked the Minister of Social Security (1) on what grounds those applying for the monthly instead of three-monthly repayments of Selective Employment Tax paid in respect of nursing or domestic assistance in the home for an elderly or disabled person are being subjected to a means test;

(2) what will be the administrative cost of the means test which applicants have to undergo in order to obtain monthly instead of three-monthly repayment of Selective Employment Tax paid in respect of nursing or domestic assistance in the home for an elderly or disabled person.

44. Mr. Scott

asked the Minister of Social Security what will be the administrative cost of the means test which applicants have to undergo in order to obtain monthly instead of three-monthly repayment of Selective Employment Tax paid in respect of nursing or domestic assistance in the home for an elderly or disabled person.

Mr. Pentland

At 22nd November, 40 such applications had been received. Monthly repayments are intended for persons for whom the longer waiting period would cause hardship. The claimant is asked for brief details of his income and expenses on which the question of hardship is decided. The procedure for considering a claim for monthly repayments is simple and if applications continue to be received at the present rate, the administrative costs are not likely to exceed £100 a year. If the standard period of repayment were monthly instead of quarterly, substantial additional administrative costs would, however, be incurred.

Mr. Holland

Does not the hon. Gentleman think it just a little iniquitous that these people, many of them elderly and infirm, should be subjected to a means test in order to qualify not for a grant but for repayment of their own money in a shorter length of time than other people?

Mr. Pentland

No, Sir. This is necessary in order that we can apply this Selective Employment Tax as it was intended to be applied. Up to 22nd November, the total number of claims for repayment received was 8,882, of which 6,768 have so far been allowed.

Mr. Dean

Until this unjust impost on the old and disabled is removed, will the hon. Gentleman at least look at the possibility of paying back this money at monthly intervals to all those in the special household category?

Mr. Pentland

I cannot forecast what the future may hold, but if monthly repayments were the general rule, claims would have to be examined and payments made to employers 12 times a year instead of four times a year under the present arrangement for refunds at three-monthly intervals. This could give rise, according to the Department's information, to a threefold increase in administrative costs.

Mr. Scott

Do not the hon. Gentleman's replies bear out our view that the tax should never have been imposed on these households? Does not the need for this particularly miserable application of the means test bear out our whole attitude when the Selective Employment Payments Act was going through the House?

Mr. Pentland

We are concerned only with the collection of the tax. The hon. Gentleman's supplementary question should be put to the Treasury.

Mr. Braine

Is it not clear from the hon. Gentleman's replies that, first, his Department is not aware of the full impact of the tax upon various categories of people? The hon. Gentleman says that he is only concerned with the facts. Secondly, is not what guides him in this, apparently, the administrative convenience of the Department?

Mr. Pentland

Not at all. We are aware of the facts. For the hon. Gentleman's information, I will tell him that monthly repayment is made where the gross weekly income of the claimant after paying for the National Insurance stamp and the wages of the employed person, and allowing 30s. for each dependent child, is less than £10 if the claimant is married or £8 if single. These income limits closely follow those prescribed for a full rates rebate under the Rating Act. 1966.