§ 4.0 p.m.
§ Mr. Emlyn Hooson (Montgomery)I am grateful to have this opportunity of raising the matter of the Severn River Authority's plans to survey 29 valleys for their possible use as reservoirs, a matter of supreme importance to many of my constituents and to Wales generally.
I am sure that by now there is no need for me to try to persuade the House that in Wales we are devoted to our rural valleys and small communities. I have little need to convince the Secretary of State of the fierce emotions which the threat of flooding a valley produces in the Principality.
Hon. Members can imagine the feelings in my constituency when we were faced with the knowledge that the Severn River Authority had plans to survey no less than 29 valleys in Montgomeryshire for their possible use as dam and reservoir sites. In response to a request of mine, the Authority sent me a plan on 8th April and I think that all who have seen it will agree that it is a horrific document in itself because it purports to show, by way of illustration, about one-third of the land surface of Montgomeryshire under water.
It is true that the Authority made it clear that this was a survey and that some sites might be eliminated as a result of it, but in the hearts and minds of most of the people affected it was a preliminary step which would eventually lead to the submergence of their valleys. The production of this map and plan, more than anything else, obviously produced a psychological effect on them.
I feel justified in saying that in many cases people have been caused needless anxiety and fear by these proposals. From my personal knowledge of the Secretary of State, which covers many years, I cannot, despite our political differences, imagine him under any circumstances allowing a valley which contains a substantial and virile Welsh community being submerged as a reservoir, whatever the technical merits of the site. If there must be a survey at all, why can it not be confined to the 994 unpopulated valleys or those where, at the most, there would be only minimal disturbance to economic, social and cultural life?
I hope that the Secretary of State will today make an authoritative statement on the Government's attitude towards the survey and about their water policy for Wales. I hope that he will be able to allay the fears and anxieties of many hundreds of my constituents and give a great deal of information which so far we have not had.
Why is such a survey necessary at all? The owners of the affected land have been told that a visual survey only was required in the first instance and that only in some cases might it be followed by bores and tests at a later date. Most of this work was done in 1961. Why is it necessary to consider 29 sites in 1966 when, five years ago, it was thought necessary to survey only 24, thus adding five additional valleys to the list? What, in any event, is the justification for the additional cost of doing work which was done just over six years ago?
On 7th April of this year Mr. Morley, the Clerk of the Severn River Authority, wrote to me saying:
I do want to emphasise that the purpose of surveying so many sites is so that the consultants can get as complete a picture as possible when it comes to considering the requirements of the Authority for regulating and flood relief purposes, that any idea that the Authority have decided either on the number of sites or on any particular ones which will be required, is completely wrong.I should be grateful if the Secretary of State would say just what are the requirements of the Authority for regulating purposes, for flood relief purposes and what decisions have been made under both of these heads.The Authority has stated that the survey is to be carried out in pursuance of its powers and duties under the Water Resources Act, 1963, and at the request of the Welsh Committee of the Water Resources Board to look into possible sites for regulating and flood relief reservoirs. Under what powers is the survey being carried out, in pursuance of which duties and what was the precise request of the Welsh Committee of the Water Resources Board to the Severn River Authority? Can we know the estimated cost of the survey? If this work has been done before, and if we are 995 in a time of financial difficulty, it would be instructive to know the additional cost of the new survey.
Why is it not possible for the Secretary of State to eliminate from the survey certain areas immediately on social, cultural and economic grounds? Some of the areas on the survey include whole communities threatened with flooding. In the Banw Valley there are the villages of Foel, Llanerfyl and Llangadfan, all of which are threatened. In Llangadfan, 80 per cent. of the population of the parish live below the projected water line, 80 per cent. of about 450 people. I cannot imagine under what circumstances the Secretary of State should give consent to flooding of this kind. Therefore, what is the justification for the survey at all? Most of these villages were categorised in the 1961 survey. For example, Banw No. 2 site was rejected on sociological grounds, others on agricultural and economic grounds, and others on geological grounds.
It is time that the Secretary of State put his foot down. His appointment was welcomed by many of us who do not share his political views because we believe that he is devoted to the cause of Wales. It would be a salutary matter and a great benefit to Wales, to the river authority and all concerned if he would make an authoritative statement today setting out exactly what his views are and what is the official approach to this problem which I think will increase in size in the next few years in Wales.
What consideration is the survey expected to give to Welsh cultural and social life? The villages of Pontrobert and Dolanog are threatened. The home of Anne Griffiths, Dolwarfach, a place of pilgrimage for so many Welsh people, would be flooded if a particular scheme were implemented. One does not expect engineers carrying out a specialist job to have regard to this matter, but it is a matter of great importance, sociologically, politically and culturally. I would welcome a statement by the Secretary of State on his attitude towards this matter.
For instance, could he ever contemplate giving permission for this inundation to take place? If not, as I suspect he would never contemplate it, is not a survey in this area a complete waste of time and money? What consideration 996 is given in the survey to the indirect harm which flooding can cause, for example, the deprivation of a small town like Llanfair Caereinion in its position as a centre of the Banw population or the disappearance of agricultural land on which the economy of hill farms depends?
These are only some of the examples of the economic and social considerations which must exercise the mind of the Secretary of State. He will know of allegations that Wales has been surveyed more than England but the House should have the comparative figures. How many dams and reservoirs involving the displacement of people from their homes in different parts of England have been made over the past decade and how many in Wales? Are similar surveys to this going on in different parts of England? We ought to be told and put in full possession of the information. From time to time serious damage is caused by the flooding of the Severn in Montgomeryshire as well as elsewhere. Although we in Montgomeryshire were distressed to lose the Clywedog Valley, the county council, the water board and other authorities co-operated in a combined scheme for that valley provided additional flood prevention measures were introduced and they were introduced.
From my inquiries I am absolutely satisfied that to prevent completely any flooding in the Severn Valley does not require reservoirs and dams on anything like the proposed scale envisaged in the survey. Can the Secretary of State tell the House what surveys have been proposed or carried out on the English side of the borders of the Severn Valley to ascertain whether there are sites there available for regulating dams and so on.
One of the fears of the people of Montgomeryshire has been the apparently clandestine nature of the negotiations leading up to the publication of the fact that the survey was being made. Can the Secretary of State tell the House what was the exact nature of the meeting at Newtown on 28th February of this year? What organisations were invited to attend? What were the terms of their invitation. In particular, was a map produced showing the extent of the survey; and, if not, why not?
997 There have been allegations—they may or may not be true; I am not giving my opinion of them—that the meeting was secret and was ostensibly called to discuss flood prevention. Can the Secretary of State comment on these allegations? Are they well founded? Did the Welsh Committee of the Water Resources Board give the representatives of the various bodies invited the details of their task, or did they merely announce the general terms of their mandate?
The State already owns land recently forested in the upper reaches of the Severn and its tributaries. Some of this land is barren land, completely unpopulated. Can the Secretary of State say what surveys have been carried out, if any, or what research has been done, if any, into the possibility of constructing clams and reservoirs in the guttered forest area from which we believe so much of the extra water which certainly adds to the floods comes?
In assessing the future water requirements of the country, is any research being carried out into the development of estuary barrages as reservoirs? What plans are there in hand for such research?
In the magazine Water Power, in April of this year. there is a most interesting article by Mr. E. M. Wilson, apparently a distinguished engineer, on a multi-purpose barrage in the Bristol Channel. In last week's Farmers' Weekly there was a most interesting article explaining the estuary barrages, and so on, used by the Dutch to provide for their water requirements. What investigation has there been along these lines in Wales?
It is also said that the desalination of sea water will shortly be an economic proposition. If this is so, what efforts will be made to apply the new processes to the needs of the large conurbations?
I conclude by saying this. Our greatest need in Montgomery at the moment is information—information as to exactly what is entailed in these surveys; information as to the Government's policy. I plead with the Secretary of State to bear in mind the uncertainty of the people in my constituency and outside as to their own future and the future of the places that they know and love. I can assure the House that the proposals have aroused 998 strong feelings which could quickly be turned to resentment.
I underline the strength of the feelings. People of all political parties; the two farming unions, and the Country Landowners' Association, have all co-operated to set up a defence committee for the whole country. We want to know exactly where we stand. No proposals for submerging any Welsh valley can go through without the eventual approval of the Government through the Secretary of State.
For the benefit of the people of Montgomeryshire and of Wales and, indeed, of the River Authority of the Water Resources Board, it would be a great help if the Secretary of State were today to make the authoritative statement which I have asked for as to precisely what the Government's policy is and what kind of proposal he would definitely not even consider on sociological and economic grounds. It might be possible for him to announce today the elimination of these sites from any further consideration. I hope that he will do so.
An English poet wrote:
Breathes there the man, with soul so dead, Who never to himself hath said,This is my own, my native land !Never was this matter so well expressed, even though it was expressed by an English poet. It expresses the feelings of many of hundreds of my constituents who are affected by this proposal.
§ 4.14 p.m.
§ Mr. W. G. Morgan (Denbigh)I am very grateful, to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. for calling me in this debate. My intervention will be of the shortest possible duration.
As the Secretary of State knows, I am affected, marginally it is true, as compared with the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson), but nevertheless affected inasmuch as two of the proposed sites are located in my constituency, one near Llanrhaidr-ym-Mochnant and the other near Llansilin. I am, naturally, concerned that the interests of these constituents of mine should be protected.
I entirely agree with the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery that a great deal of misgiving has been aroused. There are, I think, three main causes for 999 this. One is the comparatively vast number of proposed sites to be surveyed. Another is the lack of information at present about the possible acreage involved. The third, more important still, is the lack of information about the number of inhabitants likely to be affected by these proposals. I appreciate that it would not be possible, if only because of shortage of time today, for the right hon. Gentleman to answer more than some of the questions put to him, but we are entitled to rather more information on these matters than we have had so far.
I should like an assurance from the Secretary of State, if it is possible for him to give it, that, if it be found necessary to take another Welsh site at all, there will be the least possible disturbance to existing inhabitants. Knowing the right hon. Gentleman as well as I do, I know that he will bear in mind that this is not merely a question of taking agricultural land, but a question affecting a language, a culture and a way of life as well.
§ 4.16 p.m.
§ The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Cledwyn Hughes)The House, and hon. Members from Wales in particular, will be grateful to the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson) for raising this important question this afternoon. He raised a large number of points of detail, and I shall deal with as many as I can in the time at my disposal. If I am unable to reply to some of them, I shall write to him about them later.
At the outset, I congratulate the hon. Member for Denbigh (Mr. W. G. Morgan) This is the first time I have seen him at the Dispatch Box opposite. I understand that this is his second short speech in a short space of time. He was brief, lucid and helpful and, if he follows those lines in the future, we on this side will be very glad to see him there on many occasions.
During the past few years, water has become an emotive issue in Wales, and I am concerned because in this particular instance much of the alarm and agitation which has occurred in recent months has been based on misconception. This debate provides a valuable opportunity for me to set the facts in the right perspective.
1000 The House will be aware that, after the Tryweryn controversy, a Welsh Water Advisory Committee was set up in order to estimate water resources in Wales and what was likely to be the surplus over Welsh needs. This Committee, which performed very useful work, reported in 1961 that the exploitable surplus of water in Wales was of the order of 1,715 million gallons per day, and I understand that this was a conservative estimate. This is an immense amount of water, and, whatever else may be said, we can be sure that we are not likely to be short of water over Wales as a whole. But, in a period of rapidly increasing water consumption, we cannot expect that these water resources can remain entirely undeveloped.
The hon. and learned Member for Montgomery referred to desalination. Desalination may well be the eventual answer to the problem of water shortage in some areas. It is not yet an economic proposition, but when it becomes practicable, its value will be greatest near the coast, and it is unlikely to contribute much to meet water shortages in inland areas.
If further reservoirs are built in Wales for any purpose, my concern is to ensure that in this process the interests of Wales and its people are fully safeguarded. The need to develop water resources in a comprehensive and organised way led to the Water Resources Act, which was discussed at great length on the Floor of the House and in Committee in 1963. Under that Act, a Water Resources Board was set up responsible for the overall strategy of dealing with the water resources of England and Wales. It included a provision for at least one Welsh member with a special knowledge of Welsh water matters. In fact, there are two Welsh members on the Water Resources Board. Under the Act, England and Wales have been divided into river authority areas and the river authorities have been given responsibility for ensuring that water is made available in every river system for all demands made upon them. As a result of this, river authorities are now statutorily responsible for surveying their own resources and making plans for their use. Governing the River Severn and its tributaries is the Severn River Authority.
1001 This, then, was the position when my predecessor took office as the first Secretary of State for Wales in October 1964. He was concerned, as indeed I am, that there should never be a repetition of controversy such as arose over Tryweryn. He decided to set up a committee to advise him on water matters in Wales. In consultation with the Water Resources Board and the various river authorities, he set up a Welsh Water Committee consisting of the two Welsh members of the Water Resources Board, together with the chairmen of the four river authorities wholly in Wales and the chairmen of the Dee, Severn and Wye River Authorities, whose areas straddle the English-Welsh border. This represents a body of advisers with expert knowledge of Welsh water and they are fully sensitive to Welsh feeling. They are now available to advise me on any question which I care to remit to them.
The Newtown floods are a matter of concern not only to the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery but to all Welsh Members. They have been unusually severe in recent years. Following them, my predecessor decided that the first area which should receive attention was the Welsh section of the River Severn. Therefore, a Committee was asked in June, 1965, to report on the lines along which the water resources of the Welsh part of the Severn Basin should he developed, having regard to two things: first, the likely demand for water from this source up to about 1990 and, secondly, the need to utilise these assets in the interests of the area itself as well as of outside consumers through making abundant supplies of water available for incoming industries, through improvement of amenities, the promotion of tourism, and, last but not least, the prevention of flooding, to which I have referred.
The preliminary conclusions of the Committee suggest that early consideration should be given to further regulating works in the Upper Severn Valley. These, it says, would provide supplies for use in Wales and amenities and recreational facilities which could bring economic benefits to the area. They could also help to control the flooding.
1002 Before recommendations can be made about actual sites, the Committee needs more detailed information, and it has asked the Severn River Authority to commission a report from consulting engineers on the relative merits of various possible sites. This sort of survey is essential if river authorities are to carry out their statutory reviews of water resources and the demands likely to be made upon them.
The hon. and learned Member for Montgomery asked why the present survey is necessary after the 1961 Report. It is a reasonable question. The Welsh Water Advisory Committee, in that Report, listed 24 sites of varying degrees of acceptability, although that Committee had not undertaken any detailed survey; and had merely made broad assessments of capacities and classifications. To complete this task, the Severn River Authority decided to survey all possible sites in greater detail. This has created a good deal of apprehension in the minds of many people, but it is fair to point out that it is in fact completing work commenced by the Welsh Water Advisory Committee in 1961 and also carrying out its statutory obligation under the 1963 Act.
The hon. and learned Gentleman asked what its authority was. Under Section 14 of the Water Resources Act, 1963, the Severn River Authority and all other river authorities in England and Wales are under a similar obligation to carry out these duties.
Let me emphasise again that what is now in prospect is simply a survey of the resources and potentialities of various sites on which the Welsh Water Committee will eventually report to me. "Survey" in this sense does not imply detailed site investigations everywhere, and in many instances little more than a look at an area may be sufficient to reveal it as unsuitable for reservoir purposes.
Let me say this to the House and to the people of the area concerned. There is absolutely no question whatsoever of constructing 30 or so reservoirs in Mid-Wales. Nothing has been decided, but the scale of development is likely to be very much smaller than that, possibly no more than two or three reservoits during the next 20 years or so.
I appreciate the natural concern of many people in these areas, and I want 1003 to do what the hon. and learned Gentleman asked me to do, and allay their fears. I am quite sure that the Welsh Committee and the river authority will take the most careful account of the sociological objections before they make any final recommendations. They are able and conscientious men, and I am grateful to them for the valuable work they have accomplished. They have a duty to perform and they deserve our co-operation. Let me say now, so that there may be no more misunderstanding or further misconception, that as Secretary of State for Wales I do not propose to consent to the drowning of any villages in Mid-Wales. I am satisfied that if regulating reservoirs are required then the two or three which I mentioned can be built without disrupting whole communities. I can assure the hon. and learned Gentleman and the hon. Gentleman the Member for Denbigh that communities count as far as I am concerned.
The need for preserving first-class agricultural land will also be very much in my mind. It may be some time before the Welsh Water Committee is able to make its final report to me, but I am asking the Committee to eliminate unsuitable sites as soon as possible.
I should like to say a word about the meeting which took place and to which the hon. and learned Gentleman referred It was not a secret meeting. It was called together to explain to the local authorities, farmers and land owning bodies the purpose of the survey. A very large number were asked to be present, and those invited included rural district councils of Montgomeryshire and Radnorshire, the Water Board, the National Farmers' Union, the Landowners' Association. The extent of the survey had not at that time been decided but at the request of Montgomery County Council representatives it was accepted that all possible views would be considered which it was thought would be representative of all the major interests likely to be 1004 directly affected by the survey. The extent of the survey had not been determined at that stage. Although the Press was not present, full information was in fact given to the Press after the meeting.
Finally, let me say a word about the system of river regulation under which any reservoir in this area would be built. This is not the old system under which water is piped away to distant parts with little local benefit. A regulating reservoir merely holds back water in times of flood to release it in drier weather, so evening out river flows. No more and no less water flows down the river over a period of time than before a reservoir is built, but the regime of the river is improved and is better able to meet all demands made upon it.
The sooner the survey is completed the sooner I shall be in possession of all the facts so that I may decide what is possible and necessary. I should not like it to be thought that as a people we are parsimonious and inward looking. Let us remember that, by regulationg the flow of the Severn on the Welsh side, we are helping to control it on the English side of the border. The Severn belongs to both countries, and it is in the interests of both that the best possible use should be made of the resources of the river. A blind refusal to appreciate this and to cooperate with good will would be chauvenism of the worst kind and would be against the wishes of the overwhelming majority of the people of Wales.
I hope that what I have said will set at rest the minds of people who have thought themselves to be under threat. I give my assurance that in this, as in all matters affecting Wales, I intend to see that the interests of our country and its people are fully safeguarded. That is my responsibility and privilege as Secretary of State for Wales.
§ Question put and agreed to.
§ Adjourned accordingly at twenty-nine minutes past Four o'clock till Monday, 13th June, pursuant to the Resolution of the House of 24th May.