HC Deb 23 May 1966 vol 729 cc22-5
27. Mr. Dickens

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what machinery has been established to ensure that the sales policies to be adopted by the proposed head of defence sales take into account the possible political consequences of these sales and conform to the current policies and proposals of Her Majesty's Government in relation to disarmament.

40. Mr. Emrys Hughes

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what assistance he is giving to the newly appointed arms salesman to sell arms in foreign countries.

45. Mr. Frank Allaun

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps we will take to ensure that the activities of the armaments salesman and their consequences conform to Her Majesty's Government's disarmament policies.

Mr. M. Stewart

Arrangements exist for reviewing the political and other factors involved in the formulation of arms sales policies. Her Majesty's Government are committed to complete and general disarmament, but until positive measures to this end can be taken by international agreement it is in our interests to maintain our share of the arms market.

I would carefully consider any proposals made by the Head of Defence Sales for improving sales methods involving the Diplomatic Service.

Mr. Dickens

Is the Foreign Secretary aware that the appointment of a Head of Defence Sales has caused much resentment on this side of the House and among our supporters in the country? Is he further aware that the appointment will undermine the functions of the Minister for Disarmament, and will he ask his right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence to reconsider the entire matter?

Mr. Stewart

It is not right to say that the appointment undermines the work of my right hon. and noble Friend the Minister for Disarmament. We are engaged in trying to get disarmament by international agreement. It does not follow that, failing such agreement, we should deny ourselves all access to arms markets.

Mr. Hughes

Is not our most formidable competitor in the arms sales racket the United States of America? Is the arms salesman going to follow the idea outlined in the speech of the Prime Minister in Washington, that we will knock hell out of the Americans? Is that going to be the procedure in every embassy throughout the world, competing with people who are supposed to be our greatest allies?

Mr. Stewart

No, Sir. The position is as I described, that until we can get a widespread measure of disarmament by international agreement, it is reasonable that this country should have a share of the arms market. That is the purpose of this appointment.

Mr. Allaun

Is it not a fact that the sale of arms to one country often induces its neighbours to place orders in competition, thus encouraging the arms race? Are there not signs that that is already happening, for example, following the deal with Saudi Arabia; so that what is good for the arms manufacturer is bad for peace?

Mr. Stewart

My hon. Friend will notice that I said in my Answer that arrangements exist for reviewing the political and other factors involved in the formulation of arms sales policies. The point that he has mentioned is one of those political factors.

Mr. Peyton

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that if he were to give way to the argument of his hon. Friends, it would mean complete capitulation to the Americans? Would he not also agree that, however adequate our arrangements may appear to be, they are still nothing like sufficient to match the actions of the Americans, which sometimes go well beyond what many people regard as fair?

Mr. Stewart

I will not accept the last part of that supplementary question. I never regard with enthusiasm questions from any part of the House which seem to be designed to create between us and the Unites States.

Mr. Mikardo

Can my right hon. Friend give an estimate of how many British soldiers have been killed since 1945 with British arms that we have sold to people who later entered into hostilities with us? Can he calculate from that the average value of exports per British soldier killed so as to persuade us that the balance of the argument lies in favour of continuing this dirty trade?

Mr. Stewart

My hon. Friend will know that I cannot give him a statistical answer in the form in which he put his question, and I do not think that he really expects me to. He must ask himself this question. Is it his view that, in a world which has not yet achieved international agreement on disarmament, we should not sell arms at all?

Mr. Mikardo

Yes, that is my view.

Mr. Stewart

That may be his view, bat I do not think that he has thought oat the implications of that sufficiently; and it is not the policy of the Government.

Sir D. Walker-Smith

Since the case for this country not selling arms abroad in the interim phase pending comprehensive disarmament is obviously stronger if we can feel satisfied that, if we do not sell those arms, no one else will either, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any other nations and, if so, which, whatever their political ideologies, have a self-denying ordinance about the sale of armaments which they are in an economic position to sell?

Mr. Stewart

Speaking without certainty, to the best of my belief, I do not think that there is any nation which does that.

Mrs. Anne Kerr

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that one of the most important and significant things that this country might do as a contribution towards eventual peacemaking is to spend money on research into what the alternatives are for those people now engaged in the defence industries, so that they might know in good time what other work is available for them should peace break out?

Mr. Stewart

My hon. Friend knows that in the Foreign Office we do conduct studies of that kind and of other problems affecting disarmament.

Mr. Dickens

In view of that highly unsatisfactory reply, I propose to raise the matter again at the earliest convenient opportunity on the Motion for the Adjournment.