HC Deb 17 May 1966 vol 728 cc1127-31
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson)

With permission, I will now answer Questions Nos. Q9 and Q17.

My right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government, in association where appropriate with my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Scotland and Wales, will take over from my right hon. Friend the Minister of Public Building and Works responsibility for the National Building Agency, which will concentrate its efforts on housing; also for the regulations under the Public Health Acts about the construction of new buildings in England and Wales; and for the programming and processing of certain statistics and returns relating to housing.

The Housing Ministers will take over from my right hon. Friend the Minister of Public Building and Works responsibility for historic buildings under Part I of the Historic Buildings and Ancient Monuments Act, 1953.

I intend in due course to discontinue the office of Minister of Land and Natural Resources as head of a separate Department. This will involve legislation. Integration of the staff of the Ministry of Land and Natural Resources with that of the Ministry of Housing and Local Government is far advanced, but the staff, of course, will continue to serve the Minister of Land and Natural Resources so long as he retains legal responsibility for his functions. When the time comes for the redisposition of these functions, they will be announced to the House, and that announcement will specify, amongst other things, any powers transferred to the Secretary of State for Wales.

Meanwhile, this was the point concerning Question No. Q9, the Welsh Office will gain responsibility for historic buildings in Wales; the administration of building regulations and by-laws in Wales; and Welsh aspects of water resources. It will gain a share in the control of the National Parks Commission and the National Building Agency, and in the appointment of the Building Regulations Advisory Committee.

The Welsh Office will not be giving up any functions in connection with these changes.

Some of the changes to which I have referred in this Answer will be made by Order in Council under the Ministers of the Crown (Transfer of Functions) Act, 1946.

Mr. Gibson-Watt

As the right hon. Gentleman has said, under the Transfer of Functions Order, 1964, the Minister of Land and Natural Resources was responsible for hydrometric schemes in Wales. In view of the importance of water to Wales in particular, would the right hon. Gentleman give the assurance that all responsibilities for water in Wales will now come under the Secretary of State for Wales?

The Prime Minister

I made clear in my Answer that he will now be taking over the Welsh aspects of water resources. Some of the general legislation will still be a matter for England and Wales legislation together, but my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales will now take on new functions in respect of water.

Mr. Floud

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether these changes mean that there will be a change in departmental responsibility for the construction industry as a whole?

The Prime Minister

This was very carefully considered. As I said in answer to a previous Question in the last Parliament, it is a very difficult balance to decide, but it has been decided, probably I think rightly, that the responsibility for the construction industries, which includes a lot of building outside housing, is properly exercised by the Ministry of Public Building and Works. I think that that is just the right answer, but only just. The specialised functions, the National Building Agency, building regulations, and certain other responsibilities relating purely to housing ought to be in the Ministry of Housing, and that is where they are going.

Mr. Birch

Will not the Minister of Public Building and Works be rather short of a job now? Would it not be more logical, instead of transferring responsibility for historic building functions to the Minister of Housing and Local Government, to transfer from the Minister of Housing and Local Government his aesthetic responsibilities for the preservation of historic buildings to the Minister of Public Building and Works?

The Prime Minister

There will not be any question of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Public Building and Works being out of a job. The right hon. Gentleman will recall that two years ago the previous Government transferred a lot of work to him, particularly from the Service Departments. The Department now has enormous responsibilities in connection with the Government's own building programme, particularly for the Services.

The latter part of the question, about historic buildings, raises some very difficult issues. There was a strong case for them being either in one Ministry or the other. On balance, and only very much on balance and after a lot of thought, I felt that it was right that they should be in the Ministry of Housing and Local Government, who have so many other responsibilities in that sphere. It was a very difficult decision.

Mr. Woodburn

Would the Prime Minister clear up the position about the Historic Buildings Council in Scotland? I gather that the corresponding body in Wales is to be under the Secretary of State for Wales. At present, the Scottish Building Council advises both the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Minister of Public Building and Works. Does this mean that the Secretary of State for Scotland will work in the same way with the Minister of Housing and Local Government? What will be the exact responsibility for this work?

The Prime Minister

In Scotland, the responsibility will be completely with the Secretary of State for Scotland. In England it will be with the Minister of Housing and Local Government and in Wales with the Secretary of State.

Sir D. Renton

Who will become responsible for the Nature Conservancy of Great Britain?

The Prime Minister

That is being considered and will be dealt with when we bring forward the necessary legislation in relation to the Ministry of Land and Natural Resources.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

Does this mean that the right hon. Gentleman now accepts the view that has been urged upon him from these benches over the last 18 months, that responsibility for land use should lie with the same Minister who is responsible for planning decisions? Does it also mean that the Minister of Housing and Local Government will take over the Land Commission Bill?

The Prime Minister

It means, as I explained a week or two ago, that when one came to consider the division, as I believe the wrong division, between the Ministry of Public Building and Works and housing, and the necessity to transfer work to it, it became clear that one could only make sense of the whole thing by bringing back the land and natural resources housing functions as well. This was because we were dissatisfied with the reallocation of functions between housing and works two years ago.

Nevertheless, if we had not had the Ministry of Land and Natural Resources during the last 18 months we would not have been able to secure Ministerial concentration by my right hon. Friend on those two most valuable Measures, the Land Commission Bill and the proposals now coming forward for leasehold enfranchisement. They will continue to be handled by the Minister as long as he is Minister and when the Department is fully absorbed it will be a responsibility of the Ministry of Housing and Local Government.

Mr. Sharples

One of the principal reasons for transferring responsibility from the Service Departments to the Ministry of Public Building and Works was to give the Ministry of Public Building and Works a sufficient programme to carry out research into building generally and housing in particular. Can the Prime Minister say how, under this new arrangement, these research programmes are to be initiated?

The Prime Minister

It was right to transfer responsibility from the Service Departments to the Ministry of Public Building and Works, perhaps not so much for the reason stated by the hon. Gentleman, but because it was the most efficient way to get Service Department work done. Nevertheless, the division of responsibility between housing and the Ministry of Public Building and Works, and the relations between the two Departments, which the hon. Gentleman will remember pretty well approached civil war a couple of years ago, have left echoes reverberating in Whitehall. It is right to have housing under the Ministry of Housing.