HC Deb 02 May 1966 vol 727 cc1238-40
Mr. Paget

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9 to discuss a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, A raid launched from Zambia across the Zambesi into Her Majesty's Colony of Rhodesia. That it is definite is, I think, clear. That it is urgent and important is, in my submission, also clear. So far the conflict with Rhodesia has been an economic conflict. At this point a fundamental change in the circumstances has occurred—an organised raid, led by men trained in China and coming from Zambia, has invaded Rhodesia, resulting in a considerable battle. That resort to violence and invasion has incalcuable consequences—that the Rhodesians may have to cross the Zambesi in order to patrol and protect their frontier, and that there is great danger to people from a compaign of massacre and murder in Rhodesia and attempts to terrorise the African population so as to break down the system of Government.

We have seen this occur before and, in precedent, I would ask you to refer to the Adjournment debate granted by your predecessor on 31st March, 1953. The occasion was the Uplands massacre in Kenya. At that point sporadic crime had been occurring in Kenya within the Mau Mau movement, but at Uplands, near Nairobi, there occurred for the first time a heavily organised raid. At that time, I put it to the House in these words: … the attack … is a quite large-scale military operation and involves a new situation. …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st March, 1953; Vol. 513, c. 1037.] It was on such submission that your predecessor granted leave to move the Adjournment under Standing Order No. 9.

In my submission, that precedent covers the present situation. Here we have a turn from economics to violence, a new situation, dangerous and important and requiring urgent discussion both as to action in Zambia, where we have troops and where we are supporting the economy, and as to action at the United Nations before which, for the first time, there is a genuine threat to the peace.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 to discuss a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, A raid launched from Zambia across the Zambesi into Her Majesty's Colony of Rhodesia. I thank the hon. and learned Gentleman for intimating to me earlier today that he proposed to attempt to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9, and I assure him that I have read very carefully the precedent of my predecessor to which he referred.

May I say, first, to new Members exactly what is happening at the moment? Mr. Speaker is not deciding whether the matter which the hon. and learned Gentleman seeks to raise is important. No hon. Member would seek to raise anything under Standing Order No. 9 unless he thought the matter was grave or important or serious in some way. What the hon. and learned Gentleman is asking Mr. Speaker to do is to use his powers under Standing Order No. 9, because certain events seem to the hon. and learned Gentleman to fall within the terms of that Standing Order, to suspend part of the day's business of the House in order that what he seeks to raise may be discussed. That is what happens whenever an hon. Member seeks to raise a matter under Standing Order No. 9.

I have given very serious consideration both to the points that the hon. and learned Gentleman raised with me this morning and to the precedent that he mentioned. I am bound in this House, in dealing with such requests for leave, by a whole series of precedents stretching over the years. The precedent he quoted does not change the Ruling that I am now going to give.

However serious the matters may be to which the hon. and learned Gentleman referred, the House will appreciate that Standing Order No. 9 cannot be applied except in the case where, first, there is full information on the facts and, secondly, where the administrative responsibility of Her Majesty's Government is directly involved. In the present case, it does not appear that all the facts are available to us or to be clear where the administrative responsibility lies. I am afraid, therefore, that in these circumstances I cannot accept the hon. and learned Gentleman's application for leave to move the Adjournment of the House.

Mr. Paget

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Since, I understand, you ruled on the ground that the full information is not available, may I take it that there will still be a first opportunity when the full information becomes available?

Mr. Speaker

I thought that the hon. and learned Gentleman might say that. I cannot commit myself ahead on any decision I will make on an application for leave to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9. If the hon. and learned Gentleman felt that he wished to make it for some other reason later I would have to consider it. I refuse to b[...]yself ahead on Standing Order No.[...]would be a most dangerous pre[...]

Mr. Biggs-Davison

[...]urther to that point of order, Mr. Spe[...]r. Perhaps I am wrong, but did I understand you to say that there is some doubt as to where the responsibility in the matter lies? Is there some doubt as to where the responsibility for the protection of the territory of Rhodesia now lies?

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison) has roughly paraphrased what I said. He must not question my Ruling on the Standing Order.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

Further to that point of [...] Mr. Speaker. I was not questioning your [...] I was asking for elucidation. I did not understand it.

Mr. Speaker

If the hon. Gentleman refers to what I have said he will see that he has roughly paraphrased what I said.