RETIREMENT FROM WORK (TRAINING) (Hansard, 2 March 1966)

§ Mr. Alfred Morris (Manchester, Wythenshawe)

I thank my hon. Friend the Minister of State for being present, at short notice, to reply to what I hope will be regarded as a very important debate.

I have selected the topic of training for retirement from work, first, because of my experience in industry among people facing the problems of retirement. In the electricity supply industry I had 1446 knowledge of courses which were prepared on the initiative of local joint consultative committees and in co-operation with the University of Wales for employees of the industry who were nearing retirement. Working men were enabled to attend arts and crafts courses so that when they retired they had some interest outside the home. I regard the electricity supply industry as a very good employer and these courses as having been exceptionally important from the social standpoint.

My second reason for introducing this debate is that I have been approached by a number of my constituents, elderly people who are extremely apprehensive about their position when they retire. Recently, I had a particularly moving letter from a constituent in his late sixties who felt able to continue in employment, but who is faced with compulsory retirement. It was obvious to me that he would be helped greatly if it could be agreed by the House that there was need to look again at the question of compulsory retirement and, also, at the question of training for retirement.

It is a new experience for a community to face the fact that 12 per cent. of its population is fit and lively, but over the retiring age. Every month, people are having to give up work and are losing status and drifting into loneliness and isolation. Happy are those with money, interests and outlets to keep them occupied. Many, however, soon find that life has lost its meaning when they have to retire.

This new development arises from the current trend towards retirement at 60. Indeed, in a world of modern technology, many people, from management to machine-tool operator, are unable to hold their own after 55. The farewell handshake may come suddenly or according to schedule, but unless it is planned for it can be disastrous. It is only just being realised that retirement raises entirely new problems and responsibilities for individuals, the firm for which they used to work and the community.

We still know very little about the adjustments involved If the social and economic stability of the community is to be maintained, there is urgent need for research and advice on this problem. To prepare for other phases of life, we go 1447 to primary and secondary schools, training colleges, technical colleges and universities. Advice is sought from career advisers, prenatal clinics, citizens' advice bureaux and even from the anonymity of correspondence columns. We attend courses, seminars, symposiums and conferences, but a beginning has only just begun to be made in regard to this new chapter in life in which high-powered executives no less than hourly paid workers, men and women alike, have to come to terms with themselves as persons.

Preparation for retirement is essentially an individual responsibility. No man can tell another what the rules are. Each one must decide according to his own needs and desires. There is, however, a responsibility on the part of those concerned with the well-being of society, at all levels and at all stages, to see that help can be given to those who seek it and that a climate of public opinion is developed in which it is as natural to train for retirement as it is to train for work. This involves the Government, both sides of industry and the education authorities as well as the voluntary organisations.

In the words of the First Report of the National Advisory Committee on the Employment of Older Men and Women, dated October, 1953, Cmd. 8963, The community has not only an economic need of the contribution of the older worker but a positive obligation to safeguard the right of every worker, young or old, to play his full part in the life of the community. An excellent statistical survey was recently undertaken by the Workington College of Further Education. The results of this survey show that of 149 men between the ages of 50 and 55, 93 did not know what their retirement income would be; 99 had not considered how they would manage on their retirement income; 104 did not know what benefits they were entitled to; 94—and this is the figure in which I am particularly interested in this debate—had no new interests or activities to take up; and 133 found the act of talking things over with the college extremely helpful.

I should like now to refer to the Pre-Retirement Association, which was 1448 established as recently as 6th February, 1964. Its purpose is to enable people to make the most of their retirement, to prepare for a completely new pattern of living, and to understand the limitations of and to provide interests against loneliness and the sense of uselessness which engulf so many in their later years. Perhaps I may be allowed to pay tribute to Miss L. M. Hubbard, the Secretary to the Pre-Retirement Association. She has been profoundly helpful to me in preparing for this debate. Miss Hubbard is a dedicated worker in this field and is, in my view, worthy of every tribute.

The Pre-Retirement Association, despite not having been in existence very long, has given rise to pre-retirement advisory courses, more than 200 of them run by the voluntary organisations. The Association also meant that 13 regional committees have been set up in addition to the councils in Birmingham and Glasgow. It has been responsible for the fact that the current B.B.C.1 programme, "Forward to Retirement" is the most successful of the Corporation's adult education programmes with as big an audience on Thursday afternoons as on Sunday mornings. The problems of retirement and preparation for retirement are to be discussed at a summer school of the Central Council for Health Education, and it is hoped it will be the subject of the major session of the 1968 World Congress on Mental Health.

I am sure that the Pre-Retirement Association will agree with me that preparation for retirement should not be regarded as old people's welfare. There is often an air of condescension about the approach of people who speak of the problems of retirement. The men and women I am speaking of tonight represent a vital section of the community who happen to be in their sixties and want to enjoy life and to continue to make a useful contribution to society. Moreover, keeping people happly in their own homes certainly would save some of the public resources now devoted to medical care.

There was an excellent paper give by Professor W. Ferguson Anderson, Cargill Professor of Geriatric Medicine in the University of Glasgow. Professor Ferguson Anderson was in fact the first professor of geriatrics in the world. He was speaking only on Thursday of last 1449 week to the National Association for Mental Health, at its annual conference, on the preventive aspects of mental disorders in the elderly. He pointed out that the most interesting part of work with older people is the endeavour to keep them happy and healthy in their own homes. His interest in mental disorder in the elderly started 14 years ago at Rutherglen Consultative Health Centre where he was working with Dr. Nairn Cowan. At that centre people of 55 and over, with no complaints, or only minor ailments, are referred by their own general practitioners for complete medico-social assessment.

The outstanding impression of the work there has been the amount of mental ill-health discovered among older people. I understand from Professor Ferguson Anderson's paper that analysis showed that one important factor responsible for emotional disturbance was compulsory retirement, which he discussed in some depth in his paper.

Professor Ferguson Anderson was utterly convinced of the value of pre-retirement training starting, from perhaps five years before retirement from work, and that applied not only to men, but also to women. He pointed out that in Glasgow, since 1959, some 1,000 people had attended courses in pre-retirement training, the course consisting of day-release classes, one day a week for seven weeks from work, and during that period a comprehensive series of lecture/demonstrations is given on topics such as health, finance, hobbies and interests. There is ample time always for question and answer, and that is the best part of the education and training that is provided.

Professor Ferguson Anderson summed up his paper by saying: There is need then for a dynamic and active approach to the preventive aspects of mental health in old age. Ascertainment, prevention, supervision and retention in the community summarise the methods of attack. I am happy to say that in Manchester, the city that I have the honour to represent in the House, there are some of the most successful courses in preparation for retirement. At Holly Royde College, in South Manchester, an excellent course has been devised for men and women nearing retirement, and perhaps I might pay a tribute to Mr. Donald 1450 Garside, the warden of Holyroyde. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Minister of State is aware of the excellent work that he is doing and of the very high regard in which he is held by those who know of the course that he has introduced. At Lower Mosley Street Adult Education College, excellent courses are provided, also.

Perhaps I might mention some of the comments that have been made by elderly people about the courses that they have attended. A man from London said: Preparation for retirement should be made at least five years beforehand if possible. Unfortunately for me, I was advanced in age before attending these very helpful lectures. A man from Manchester said: I used to be afraid of retirement. Now I'm looking forward to it; in fact, I can't wait for some of the things I want to do. An elderly labourer in Glasgow said: I have been amazed by the course and the good it has done me. I would have been lost after I had retired. Now I am not afraid. There are still many people nearing retirement who are afraid of the effect that it will have on their lives. I have mentioned the case of my own constituent who has written to me in such moving terms about his own personal problem.

There are many employers who are doing excellent work by giving day release to their employees. There are employers who have introduced phased retirement and who pay the fees of educational institutions attended by their employees. I should like to think that, as a result of this debate, more employers will consult their employees with a view to developing further activity in this field, because we need to encourage a growing appreciation of the need for an increase in education and training for retirement.

We are not behind other countries in dealing with many aspects of this problem. In the United States considerable resources are devoted to research into this problem, but we are in advance in our developments in the field. The United States may be ahead of us in precept, but I understand that we are ahead of them in practice. But we are not going fast enough, and I think that there is much more that we can do.

There is a need for considerable rethinking about compulsory retirement. People do not grow old at the same rate. There are as many types of elderly people 1451 as there are elderly people, and we should not regiment them as we do at the moment. I am profoundly against the idea of lumping people together and regarding them as though their problems were the same.

They feel that they should be allowed to carry on working while they are able to do a job, and it may be that we shall be able to reconsider this problem of compulsory retirement. Perhaps I might remind the House that the National Plan points out that by 1970 we shall require 4½ million retired people working part-time, and this points to the need for reconsidering the question of compulsory retirement.

It also points to the need for more research in this field. Peter Townsend, who is no mean authority on the problem of elderly people, said: The belief that services for the elderly should not be given as much priority as those for other groups is widespread, and leading politicians continue to delude themselves that voluntary organisations can cope with problems and needs which have long since outstripped their resources. They are also perhaps lulled into inertia by the lack of organised pressure groups among the elderly. I do not feel that that stricture applies to my hon. Friend the Minister of State. I hope that he will be able to encourage his and my right hon. Friends to try to help the Pre-retirement Association, which might have to go out of existence if some help is not forthcoming. I hope too, that he will agree that this is a topic which is worthy of much more discussion than it has received so far, and that it is one of considerable importance.

§ The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Mr. R. E. Prentice)

I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe (Mr. Alfred Morris) has earned the gratitude of the House for raising this topic, and for his humanitarian approach to the problem. This is a subject which the House ought to debate at greater length, when other hon. Members can take part, and when perhaps more than one member of the Government can take part, because so many Departments are involved.

I should like to refer briefly to three aspects of what my hon. Friend said. I 1452 propose to deal, first, with the question of compulsory retirement. It is clear that the practice of retirement in many spheres of employment is far too rigid at the moment. This is a matter to which the Government are giving considerable attention.

There is here a piece of jargon with which perhaps we shall become familiar, the "activity rate" as it is called, of people over retirement age, which refers to the percentage of them still in employment. It is lower in this country than in many others. For men it is 25.6 in this country, compared with 29.2 in the United States, and the much higher figure of 42 per cent. in Switzerland.

It is the view of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and the Government that they would wish to encourage more employers to do what some enlightened employers are doing at present—to review the working conditions and progress of elderly workers sympathetically; to encourage by stages the transfer to less exacting duties and shorter hours, so that retirement is a gradual process and is not the sharp break it is in too many cases at present. But conditions must vary with the job. There are particular circumstances in particular kinds of job which dictate a firm retirement age, but the whole system should move in the direction of greater flexibility. That is the view of the Government.

As for the provision of courses, my hon. Friend referred to the courses with which he has been associated in South Wales, and to courses in Glasgow and in Manchester at the Holly Royde College. I had the pleasure of attending the 21st birthday celebrations there a few months ago and I join in his tribute to that college. It is typical of what is happening in many parts of the education system at present. Courses are being run, particularly in local further education colleges. In London, the I.L.E.A. is organising courses on a day-release basis in nine different institutions. Courses take the form of one afternoon per week for 10 weeks, each session being of two hours' duration.

I understand that at the moment the size of class varies from 30 to 50. The people attending these courses are approaching retirement and are released by their employers, who co-operate in 1453 this matter. The subjects taught include availability of voluntary work and paid work; the economic problems of retirement; health problems and psychological problems of retirement; and leisure activities and many other aspects of the problem.

In Birmingham, arrangements have been made between the further education institutions and the City of Birmingham Retirement Council for courses in some of the further education institutions there, for one afternoon a week for six weeks on a day-release basis, in co-operation with local employers—and I could give other examples. But it is not confined to civic and further education institutions. University extra-mural departments and the Workers' Education Association are organising courses of this kind.

We need not think exclusively of elderly people taking part in courses in preparation for retirement. Some of them—and there are signs that their number is growing—are taking advantage of the general provision of adult and further education in their localities. There was an excellent article in last Friday's New Statesman by a 68-year-old steel worker who has been experimenting in taking G.C.E. English for the first time. It is a humorous article, describing how the 16-year-olds with whom he was associating assumed that he had been trying to pass the examination since he had been 16. He hoped eventually to take his university external degree.

I am informed by the Ministry of Labour that the pattern varies. It is aware of cases in which employers are releasing people for a day a week for a number of weeks—sometimes a whole day and sometimes an afternoon. There are other examples of courses laid on on a residential basis—two days or three 1454 days, up to five days. There are many other examples of evening classes attended by people preparing for retirement. This is one more example of the way in which further education in particular responds to national needs and local needs, and stimulates interest by laying on courses in advance of demand and advertising them and getting people interested.

The Ministry of Labour takes the view that day release is to be encouraged, but it is not something that the Ministry can require of employers at the moment. Nor can it be put in the context that firms are expected to give it as a right always. The Government hope that progressive employers will want to take part in day-release activities, but it is not in the category of matters that they can be required to do.

The Government are pressing employers to do more by way of day release for young workers. We hope between now and 1970 to double the provision of day block-release courses for young and it is in this direction that the Government are putting pressure on employers, rather than for those in the older age groups, although that is not to say that we do not want to see an extension of day release for older workers.

I have virtually no more time available to comment further on the matter. There are many other aspects which I hope the House will discuss at very great length in the future. I am sure that all hon. Members are grateful to my hon. Friend for introducing the subject in the way that he did tonight.