DOCKS AND HARBOURS [MONEY] (No. 2) (Hansard, 28 June 1966)

HC Deb 28 June 1966 vol 730 cc1743-50 1743

§ [Queen's Recommendation signified]

§ Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 88 (Money Committees).

§ [Sir ERIC FLETCHER in the Chair]

§ Motion made, and Question proposed, That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make further provision for regulating the employment of dock workers, it is expedient to authorise—

(a) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase in the sums so payable under section 12 of the Harbours Act 1964 which is attributable to provisions of the said Act of the present Session extending the class of persons to whom and the expenses in respect of which assistance by way of grant may be given under that section;
(b) the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of any sums required to enable the Minister of Transport to make loans under section 11 of the said Act of 1964 by virtue of provisions of the said Act of the present Session extending the expenses in respect of which such loans may be made;
(c) the raising under the National Loans Act 1939 of any money required for the purpose of providing sums to be issued as mentioned in paragraph (b) above;
(d) the payment into the Exchequer and reissue out of the Consolidated Fund of any sums received by the Minister of Transport in respect of any loans mentioned in paragraph (b) above.—[Mr. Swingler.]

§ 10.23 p.m.

§ Mr. Nicholas Ridley (Cirencester and Tewkesbury)
Does not the Joint Parliamentary Secretary propose to explain the Money Resolution? I have a lot to say about it, but it would be appropriate for the hon. Gentleman first to introduce it and to attempt to explain to the Committee what it is all about. On a Bill which has gone through the Committee stage, it would be very cavalier to ask for a second Money Resolution without one word of explanation or an Amendment on the Paper to tell us what it is all about.

§ The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. Stephen Swingler)
The Money Resolution was moved by my right hon. Friend the Minister and I thought that it was well understood. Naturally, however, I am 1744 only too pleased to explain it. It is straightforward.
The Resolution is in fulfilment of the Government's promise concerning investment grants for docks and harbours. As the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) knows very well from our proceedings in Standing Committee on the Docks and Harbours Bill, this is an amended Money Resolution which goes much wider than the original Resolution. It is necessary because on Report we are putting down a new Clause to the Bill to provide for investment grants in docks and harbours.
Briefly, the purposes are these. Subparagraph (a) of the Money Resolution provides for the extension of the Minister's powers under Sections 11 and 12 of the Harbours Act, 1964, to make grants not only to statutory harbour authorities but also to persons acting as harbour authorities or to other persons who undertake works for the improvement of harbours and docks. It simply extends the powers which now exist in Sections 11 and 12 of the Harbours Act, 1964, beyond the statutory harbour authorities to other persons who undertake capital works for the improvement of harbours and docks.

§ Sir Harmar Nicholls (Peterborough)
Is there any extra money involved in it?

§ Mr. Swingler
Naturally there will be extra money involved. Evidently the hon. Member has not read this morning's HANSARD in which my right hon. Friend explained in answer to a Question put to her by my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, West (Mr. Hamling) about what financial assistance is involved in the Money Resolution. If the hon. Member wishes to have figures of the additional investment that the Government are providing, we shall be only too pleased to give him all the details. We can write to him and put it on record that the Government have sought to extend the investment grants in this way.
That is the meaning of the first subparagraph of the Money Resolution. The second, third and fourth sub-paragraphs will enable us to rectify what was regarded as a possible error in the Harbours Act, 1964, where the Minister was empowered to make grants and loans to statutory harbour 1745 authorities for capital works for the improvement and maintenance of the harbours, but did not provide for those who were initiating a new and separate harbour. The purpose of sub-paragraphs (b) to (d) is to ensure that the Minister's power to make loans under the Act of 1964 is extended to those harbour authorities who are responsible for new and separate harbours.
I hope that that satisfactorily explains the meaning of the Money Resolution.

§ Mr. Ridley
I am afraid that that is not at all a satisfactory answer, and I want to complain about this state of affairs.
This morning, the Government put on the Order Paper a Money Resolution to the Docks and Harbours Bill, which has gone through its Committee stage complete. We have no supporting document to tell us what it is about, apart from a written Question and Answer and an article in The Times newspaper. The hon. Gentleman has not tabled or discussed the Amendment to which the Money Resolution refers.
When we get the Amendment, we will have had the Committee stage and there will have been no chance of examining and discussing it. There will have been no chance to amend the new Clause which the hon. Gentleman is going to put down. He tells us that the new Clause will deal with investment grants, which this side of the Committee do not accept at all. I cannot discuss the new Clause, because I have not seen it, but there is a Bill in Committee upstairs which has been closely fought by the Opposition because they disagree with the whole principle of it.
This is not some perfectly acceptable little legal nicety which both sides would find unobjectionable. Why did not the hon. Gentleman bring the Clause forward in the original Bill, or even as late as last Thursday? After all, it is only five days since the Committee last sat. Why did he have to wait until the night after a very long night sitting when he hoped that hon. Members might not notice? Why did he not put the Clause forward when the Committee was sitting on the Bill, when no doubt it would have been given favourable consideration?
1746 It is a most discourteous thing to do to the Committee to bring forward a major proposal of this sort as soon as the Committee has finished, thereby dodging the Committee stage of the Bill. We shall expect the hon. Gentleman to recommit this Bill. We are not going to accept this major change in the Bill at this late stage without any warning. I know the Minister telephoned my right hon. Friend this morning, but this is not an adequate warning for other Members of the House, and I can only say that this has been a thoroughly unsatisfactory way of treating the Opposition in the matter.

§ 10.30 p.m.

§ The Times has been our only informant. The First Secretary tells us that the whole of the docks industry is going to be nationalised. He tells us that no less than £9 million this year and £13 million in future years is to be spent in investment in the docks—

§ Mr. Arthur Lewis (West Ham, North)
Sir Eric, is it not the case that on a Money Resolution one cannot discuss the whole basis of whether or not the docks industry should be nationalised? There is nothing in the Resolution about the nationalisation of the docks, much as this may be necessary. This is a question on which some of us who represent docks areas would like to speak. There is much argument in favour of the nationalisation of the docks.

§ The Chairman
I am listening carefully to what the hon. Member says. If he pursues that line of argument he will be out of order.

§ Mr. Ridley
Further to that point of order, Sir Eric. This Money Resolution, we are told by the supporting Memorandum and in The Times, will enable the right hon. Lady the Minister of Transport to lend £9 million this year to harbour undertakings. This Money Resolution comes before the Committee and gives power to the Government to lend—in fact, to give—£9 million to harbour undertakers—indeed, an unlimited sum because—

§ Mr. Arthur Lewis
On a point of order, Sir Eric. The hon. Gentleman is referring to what is reported in The Times 1747 this morning. I thought we were discussing this Money Resolution. I did not think we were discussing what was said in The Times as to whether the Minister did or did not suggest that the Government should spend £9 million. If this is in order, are we allowed to develop what was published in The Times!

§ The Chairman
No, it is not permissible on the Money Resolution to discuss projects for nationalisation or expenditure referred to in The Times.

§ Sir Harmar Nicholls
Further to that point of order. This is a Money Resolution, and the only reference that has been made to money has been a reference by my hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley). I should not have thought the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) would have objected to my hon. Friend's remarks.

§ The Chairman
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary has explained the object of this Money Resolution, which is to facilitate an amendment of the Bill. The hon. Member is entitled to ask the Minister questions about the scope of the Money Resolution, but he is not enabled on the Money Resolution to pursue matters referred to in The Times newspaper article.

§ Mr. Ridley
With the greatest respect, Sir Eric, this Money Resolution gives the Government unlimited powers to give the harbour undertakers public money, without any stipulation as to what they are to do with it. Therefore, in my respectful submission, it entitled harbour undertakers to buy up the employers' businesses in their docks. It is an absolute carte blanche Money Resolution for the nationalisation of the docks, as it stands. I do not intend to pursue that matter on this occasion, but I submit for the benefit of the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) that it is in order to discuss the use of this money, the purpose for which it is to be used, and indeed to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us how much money he is going to use under this Resolution and what is the limit. I do not think the Committee should be asked at short notice to vote large sums of money which, so far as we know, are 1748 unlimited and the purpose of which, so far as we have had any guidance from the Parliamentary Secretary and The Times, is for the nationalisation of the harbours in this country.
I do not agree with the principle of investment grants. I hope, therefore, that the hon. Member will give us an opportunity, by recommitting the Bill, to discus the new Clause which he has suddenly mentioned. I hope that he will explain why, after the Bill has been through its entire Committee stage, he should bring forward this additional Money Resolution and the new Clause, which we have not yet seen—and why he could not have brought the Clause forward at least last Thursday, so that we could consider the matter in Committee.
He makes it difficult for the Opposition to co-operate, as we have cooperated in the past. If he will respond to this request we might agree to let the Money Resolution go through.

§ Mr. Swingler
All I can say in reply to the hon. Gentleman is that this is the earliest opportunity, on which we were able to produce the Money Resolution to enable us to put down the new Clause on Report. I took the earliest opportunity—not this morning but yesterday morning—to inform the right hon. Gentleman who led for the Opposition in Committee, and who apparently is not here now, of the context and meaning of this move. It is not for me to say; it is for the Chair to say, whether Amendments—and if so, what sort—will be allowed on the new Clause when it is put down on Report. I simply say that the Money Resolution is presented to enable us to put down the new Clause, which is to empower the Minister of Transport to make these investment grants.
I take note of the fact that the Opposition, apparently, are opposed to investment grants being made to the people concerned with the improvement, maintenance and management of the docks and harbours, except for the statutory harbour authorities, for which the Conservative Government provided grants and loans in the Harbours Act, 1964. The Money Resolution is produced simply to extend Sections 11 and 12 of that Act to enable the Minister of Transport to make investment grants not only to 1749 statutory harbour authorities but to those harbour authorities which are not statutory authorities, and others which undertake capital works for the improvement, maintenance and management of harbours.
I am astonished that the Opposition are opposed to these capital grants being made. We take note of that fact, and on Report shall hope to see the Chair accepting a manuscript Amendment to our new Clause—an Amendment which will no doubt seek to deprive other than statutory harbour authorities from the benefit of investment grants.
It is necessary to have this Money Resolution so that this matter can be discussed in connection with the new Clause. We believe that these grants will be a progressive step towards providing the necessary capital investment in the docks and harbours which have so long been neglected.

§ Question put and agreed to.

§ Resolved, That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make further provision for regulating the employment of dock workers, it is expedient to authorise—

§ (a) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase in the sums so

1750

§ payable under section 12 of the Harbours Act 1964 which is attributable to provisions of the said Act of the present Session extending the class of persons to whom and the expenses in respect of which assistance by way of grant may be given under that section;

§ (b) the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of any sums required to enable the Minister of Transport to make loans under section 11 of the said Act of 1964 by virtue of provisions of the said Act of the present Session extending the expenses in respect of which such loans may be made;

§ (c) the raising under the National Loans Act 1939 of any money required for the purpose of providing sums to be issued as mentioned in paragraph (b) above;

§ (d) the payment into the Exchequer and reissue out of the Consolidated Fund of any sums received by the Minister of Transport in respect of any loans mentioned in paragraph (b) above.

§ Resolution to be reported.

§ Report to be received Tomorrow.