HC Deb 28 July 1966 vol 732 cc2035-55

Considered in Committee

[Sir ERIC FLETCHER in the Chair.]

Clauses 1 to 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

New Clause.—(COMMISSIONER FOR BUSHMAN AFFAIRS.)

Not later than 30th September 1966. Her Majesty may, after consultation with the Secretary General of the United Nations, by Order in Council appoint a Commissioner for Bushman Affairs.—[Sir D. Clover.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

10.15 p.m.

Sir Douglas Glover (Ormskirk)

I beg to move, That the Clause be read a Second time.

I spoke on the Second Reading of this Bill, trying to get a fair deal for the bushmen in Bechuanaland or Botswana. I must say that the most unsatisfactory reply I have ever heard from a Minister from the other side of the Committee for a long time was the reply given to me on that occasion. I am going to bore the Committee—I think that that is the right word—by reading what the Secretary of State said. The hon. Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover) was concerned about the problem of the bushmen. I accept that very few Members understand the problems of the bushmen and might describe this as a minor problem.

I understand"— the Secretary of State said— that a trained anthropologist was commissioned to consider the welfare of these people a year ago. That gentleman made a survey. A copy of his report was published last year and is now in the Library of the House. This was very reassuring to me, after the speech that I have made, to know that the only action the Government was taking before giving this country independence related to a report that I could read in the Library of the House. I have already read the report, as no doubt, have a great many hon. Members. The Minister went on: Responsibility for the bushmen's affairs has now been placed with the portfolio of the Deputy Prime Minister, and the extent to which the Bechuanaland Government will be able to devote funds— and I would like to draw the attention of the Committee to this— especially to assist the bushmen themselves will depend upon other competing demands."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th July, 1966; Vol. 732, c. 1669.] This is what I am asking the hon. Gentleman about tonight before we give this country its independence. I am not opposing in any way the granting of independence to Botswana. I believe that it is one of the few countries which has the sort of leadership which warrants granting it independence. I have an enormous admiration for Dr. Seretse Khama, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not feel that there is anything critical in what I say.

To return to the problem of the bush-men. I do not think that I can alert the Committee to the problem of these people, because their problem is something about which most of us can have no conception. These people are looked upon in the country in which they live by the whites as being a sort of human being in which no one would take any interest and by the Bantu as sub-human. They have been driven out by the whites and the Bantu from the land that they occupied. Four hundred years ago they occupied the whole of South Africa. Now they have finished up living a precarious life on the edge of the Kalahari desert. It is one of the accidents of Nature that these poor and little people with no one to speak for them are being handed over when this country attains independence to a population the majority of whom do not think of them as human beings at all.

I understand the problems of Her Majesty's Government, and I am not being critical. If we are going to hand these people over without making any safeguards for them, then we are handing the bushmen over to extermination. Let us make no bones about it, let us not be mealy-mouthed. Let us not speak of liberation for Botswana. If we hand this country over to independence without the safeguards which have existed—very ineffectively—during the years that we have been responsible for the country then we know perfectly well that 50,000 bushmen will probably cease to exist in the next 20 years.

I am trying, even at this stage, to get some machinery which will protect the interests of this completely defenceless minority. They will not send delegates to the United Nations. There will not be an impassioned debate about them in the House. They will just cease to exist. All that I am asking the hon. Gentleman who is responsible for the Bill is whether, even at this stage, we can produce some machinery to protect the interests of the bushmen.

My Amendment is the nearest Amendment you, Sir Eric, would have called as being in order. I know that the Under-Secretary of State will not mind if I say that it is not what I should have liked to propose as an Amendment. I should have liked to table an Amendment saying that Her Majesty's Government will, for many years to come, probably for the next 20 years, to provide aid to Botswana. It may be £1 million, £2 million or £3 million a year. If I were a Bantu living in poverty in Botswana, I would endeavour to make sure that nearly all the money which this country provided went to my people.

All that I am asking in this Amendment is that before we give this country its independence we will provide out of the £3 million a year which we give towards the development of Botswana, say £25,000—and if we provide £3 million a year £25,000 is very small—for the bushmen. The Secretary-General of the United Nations should be told, "Here are the most depressed people in the world who are in a worse position even than the serfs and, probably, chattel slaves in Saudi Arabia. They are looked upon by the whites and blacks in that community as being less than human."

Before giving this country independence, we should ensure that some person will be responsible in the years to come for their welfare. I do not suggest that this person should make them millionaires or superior to the Bantu, but he should have the responsibility of ensuring that the conditions of these people do not deteriorate but gradually improve as the standard of living of the country in which they live improves. History shows that with education and training these people are at least as intelligent as the remainder of the population. But the remainder of the population do not look upon them as having an equal status.

This problem is far worse than the problem of the negro element in the United States and all the problems we have discussed in the House in recent years. Here is a community of people who are literally looked upon by the rest of the people in that country as not being worth making a protest to the police about if one of them is shot—and they are shot, sometimes when they steal cattle because they are starving. They are looked upon as sub-human by the whites, many of whom are Afrikaans, but they are almost entirely looked upon as sub-human by the Bantu. Their women are used by the Bantu for sexual purposes without permission, and they are a lesser breed, without the law.

We are giving the country its independence, but, before doing so, I believe that we have a moral duty to make quite certain that we do everything in our power to protect the interests of the voiceless minority who are the bush-men on the edge of the Kalahari Desert.

During the Second Reading of the Bill, the Secretary of State indicated that for the next five, ten or 15 years it is likely that this country will be giving £2 million or £3 million a year in aid to Botswana. All I ask is that the Parliamentary Secretary, on behalf of the Government, will accept the spirit of my Amendment and accept that, under the conditions which exist, though it would be wrong for the Government to try and appoint a Commissioner for Bushmen Affairs to look after their interests, because that would be labelled in Botswana as neocolonialism, it would not be wrong for us to find the money for the Secretary-General of the United Nations to appoint a Commissioner for Bushman Affairs to protect the interests of this voiceless minority.

I do not wish to detain the Committee for any length of time, because I made the argument for the Bushmen the other night. Her Majesty's Government know as well as I do the problems that exist. They will not have power for much longer if they give independence to the country. I plead with them, while they still have the power, to say that we are not going to hand the country over to independence without taking on our moral duty to look after this voiceless minority, and that we will say to Botswana that, whatever the amount we give to its Government year by year, £20,000 or £25,000 a year will be earmarked to provide a commissioner appointed by the Secretary-General of the United Nations—I do not mind if it is in consultation with the Prime Minister of Botswana—to look after the interests of this depressed class and make quite certain that we have carried out our obligations and our moral duty to people who cannot come to this House, who cannot go to the United Nations and who are not likely to rally the Morse Committee with apartheid and suchlike.

The bushmen are a small group of people who are voiceless. Before giving the country independence, it is the duty of this Government to protect their rights and their future. Under my Amendment, I believe that, without any great cost to the people of this country, we can do it. I plead with the hon. Gentleman, even at this late stage, if he really stands for the humanitarian things for which he has spoken in the House on many occasions, to accept the spirit of my Amendment.

10.30 p.m.

Mr. Eric Ogden (Liverpool, West Derby)

I rise to support the plea that the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover) has put to my hon. Friend on the Front Bench.

There are two points in his remarks which I would like to take up. One is that there is no doubt that Dr. Khama can be relied upon to have as much concern for these people as he could be expected to have in his own circumstances.

My second point relates to the hon. Gentleman's suggested sum of £25,000. I do not think that that would be enough, I would put it much higher than that, even within a total ceiling of £3 million.

I think that the hon. Gentleman's aims could be achieved without taking the matter to the United Nations. If we are to give this country its nationhood, its independence, and the ability to work within its own framework, knowing the people who are to be in charge of its affairs, and knowing also their limited resources, I think that we could get an undertaking from the leaders of the country that they will, within the framework of the aid that is to be given to them, look after these people. They may have their own proposals about helping these people, but I think that some understanding can be arrived at.

Sir D. Glover

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. I think that he has missed the point that I was making. If I may say so without disrespect, I do not think that he understands the situation. Few people in this House do. When a country which is grinding with poverty gets £3 million from this country, and when there are so many Bantu who need this aid, and when the Bantu do not regard these people as human, they will get very little help unless we do something to help them before we grant independence to the country.

Mr. Ogden

The hon. Gentleman is a much greater authority on this subject than I am, and it is to his credit that he has raised this issue now, after the strenuous time that we have had in the House during the last few days, but I think that what he wants can be achieved within the framework of granting independence and during the negotiations which will take place between Her Majesty's Government and the new independent Government.

The hon. Gentleman said that not many people appreciated this problem. Not many months ago the B.B.C. showed a series of films on this part of the world, and the need for educating the nation about which the hon. Gentleman has spoken is as great as ever before. I support the hon. Gentleman in his intentions, and I ask my hon. Friend to tell us how far he can go to help the bushmen, and what kind of negotiations are to take place about this in the future.

Dame Joan Vickers (Plymouth, Devonport)

I support my hon. Friend the Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover), because for a long time I have taken an interest in the bushmen of the Kalahari Desert, in particular. I originally came into contact with them when an agreement was made in my house between Seretse Khama and Tshekedi Khama, one of the greatest Africans I have known. supported by Michael Scott. It was as a result of that decision that we went to see the then Commonwealth Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home), and got agreement that Seretse Khama could return to his country, and I think that he has proved to be a magnificent leader since.

When one looks at a map of this country, one realises that it is bigger than France, Belgium, Holland, Denmark and Luxemburg put together, and one realises what a problem one has with only 500,000 people there. As my hon. Friend said, there is a temptation to deal with the people who are on the spot, the people in the cities, rather than with those in the Kalahari Desert.

I understand that the constitution of independence will be provided separately by an Order in Council. I wonder, therefore, whether the hon. Gentleman could, in that Order in Council, include in a provision to protect the bushmen, because it is essential that some action is taken to this end.

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman saw the film which I showed in the Grand Committee Room upstairs. It was taken by an American, and I think that the hon. Gentleman would be been astonished, or perhaps horrified, as were some of my audience, by the facts. Even when one looks at the book in the Library, to which reference has been made, one is ashamed not only of this Government, but of previous ones, for the lack of action on behalf of these people. One sees their poor physique, and realises that they literally have to scratch the ground for their food. I had to stop the film, because in this country there are many animal lovers, and it showed a giraffe which I understand it took nearly four hours to kill with bows and arrows. It was a horrifying spectacle on the film, and although the American who produced it wanted it to go on to the finish. I had to stop it. This shows the extreme measures to which the bush-men have to go to get their food. When we think of the terrible famine that occurred in this country in recent months, we realise that these people are finding life even more difficult. They are nomadic, and if they want to get food they have to go to various employers who give them something to sustain them.

About one-third of the population, not counting the bushmen, are living, on average, on 10 ounces of maize and one ounce of vegetable oil. It is better to go to prison there, because there one gets 1½ pounds of maize, fresh vegetables and sugar each day. These are very primitive people, but we should think of them as human beings and not just specimens for anthropologists to investigate, which is what they are at the moment.

When I was in Malaysia we had a protector for the hillmen, male and female, and this worked very satisfactorily. I suggest to the Minister that perhaps a special sum of money could be earmarked for these people. It will be difficult for the future President, unless a sum is earmarked, because he will feel forced to say to the people who are living on a famine existence at the moment, "I cannot spend this £25,000 we are getting on you, the bushmen, because we need it for the people who are working and helping to support the country in its dire need."

I hope that the Minister will think of my suggestion, that when he considers setting up the constitution by Order in Council he should incorporate a clause safeguarding the future of the bushmen. I add my plea to that of my hon. Friend that something should be done. I put forward a petition in Uganda on behalf of one of the minority tribes providing for a referendum before we gave it independence. My suggestion was not agreed to by the then Conservative Government, but later they had a referendum and afterwards at least two people were killed in disturbances. I ask for the protection of the bushmen while we still have time. The solution put forward by my hon. Friend may not be the best one, but it is one possible solution, and I hope that it will commend itself to the House.

10.40 p.m.

Mr. John Farr (Harborough)

I support the new Clause, and I also endorse what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover) and my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dame Joan Vickers). Unless something is done on these lines there is a possibility of the complete and utter elimination of the bushmen as a tribe, or a race, as they exist at the moment. They are a race with a very ancient culture, and I thought the response by the Secretary of State on Tuesday, to which my hon. Friend has already referred, was an exceptionally weak one.

All he said—with some pride—was that a report had been published and that it was in the Library, as though that was a triumph in itself, and that hon. Members should wish no more than to study the report and go away satisfied. I have studied the report. I should point out that my interest is not an idle one, because I have been among the bushmen and I have land just over the border in Rhodesia. The report is an admirable and painstaking piece of work. It was commissioned in 1958, completed in 1964 and published last year.

In the debate on Second Reading, it was suggested to the Secretary of State that a certain proportion of the aid which we are going to give in ensuing years to the new country of Botswana should be earmarked for the development and protection of the bushmen. Probably rightly, the Secretary of State said that it would be impracticable and impossible to tie strings to money in that manner, so my hon. Friend the Member for Ormskirk has made another suggestion, which I at least accept.

I suggest that his suggestion about the appointment of a Commissioner for Bush-men's Affairs is eminently practical and one which many of us on both sides of the House would like to see adopted, as we do not want to see the bushmen deteriorate even more than they have in the past few years to the status of their closely related cousins, the Hottentot Hollands in the southern part of the continent, who have virtually ceased to exist.

I should like to ask the Under-Secretary of State what has been done about the recommendations in the Silberbauer Report, published in 1965. Many useful and pungent suggestions are made in that report, which I am sure the hon. Gentleman has considered very carefully. One of the firmest recommendations of Mr. Silberbauer was that 15 new water bore-holes should be established in the Central Kalahari Reserve for the use of the bushmen. Has that scheme been started or completed? If not, when will a start be made on what is one of Mr. Silberbauer's most important recommendations?

Another very striking recommendation in the report, on which I am anxious to know the progress made, is the question of a subsidy which it was recom- mended should be paid to stimulate the schooling and post-schooling participation in the pupil-farmer scheme for bush-men and their children. This was one of the most important of the five or six salient recommendations of the report. It would appear to cost very little to start. Has a start been made on it? If so, what sort of response has there been to this attempt to educate the bushmen? Is it proposed and has an assurance been given that this programme will continue in the fruitful years which we hope lie ahead for this new country?

Has the experimental breeding and cattle station in the Ghanzi farm area been established for the purpose of teaching bushmen and their children the rudiments of farming, cattle culture, tilling the soil and giving them some idea of how they can best help themselves? The Minister will remember that in 1963 it was recommended to the Legislative Council that the western boundary of the Central Kalahari Reserve be moved a few miles east, thereby considerably reducing the area of land on which, for many years, the bushmen have managed to eke out a living. No action was taken on that recommendation, and one recommendation in the Silberbauer Report was that under no circumstances should the boundary be moved in that way.

After nearly seven painstaking years in the Central Kalahari district, Mr. Silberbauer firmly recommended that the boundary should not be moved eastwards—that the territory available in the Central Kalahari to the bushmen should not be reduced in that manner—and I hope that we will be told that this matter has been raised with the new authority in Bechuanaland and that an assurance has been received from that authority.

We have had two bites at this apple. On Second Reading we asked for the earmarking of a certain proportion of aid to go to sustaining the bushmen, and tonight my hon. Friend the Member for Ormskirk has moved the new Clause. We have also had a new suggestion from my hon. Friend the Member for Devon-port. Hon. Members will recall the deep concern which the Minister showed, when in opposition, for the rights of minorities to be protected. We therefore feel that, in making these suggestions, our seeds are falling on fruitful ground.

If the Clause is not acceptable and if aid cannot be earmarked, as an alternative to those two suggestions I wonder if something could be done through the C.D.C., which has done a great job of work, not only for countries which still have colonial status but for many territories which have achieved independence in the Commonwealth. Could we, through the C.D.C., help the bushmen of Botswana in our general programme of activities through that organisation? Could not the C.D.C. take over the Ghanzi Farm and establish it as an experimental cattle breeding station for the benefit of the bushmen in the years of independence that lie ahead? Many people including hon. Members on both sides of the Committee, fear that the bushmen will get a raw deal. We do not want to see them relegated to the status that the Red Indians have in America.

I conclude by wishing the new country of Botswana, under the very able leadership of Seretse Khama, the best of luck in the years that lie ahead.

10.49 p.m.

Mr. Richard Wood (Bridlington)

My hon. Friend the Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover) made what all hon. Members will agree was a powerful plea on behalf of the bushmen, a plea which, I am sure, has left us with a considerable feeling of unease.

We were not greatly impressed by the assurance of the right hon. Gentleman the other night concerning the Report in the Library, because, as a comprehensive Report, it naturally points to the gaps in the past rather than giving any assurances for the future. The plea made by my hon. Friend has been supported by many hon. Members, powerfully so by the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Ogden). As my hon. Friend the Member for Ormskirk pointed out, he is not particularly wedded to the wording of the new Clause and would have chosen other wording had he been able to do so. However, he is wedded to the spirit of it in requiring from the Minister some reassurance that this problem can be satisfactorily dealt with.

I should like the hon. Gentleman to tell us whether this question was discussed with the future rulers of Botswana either before or during the independence Conference, and I would plead with him, as my hon. Friends and as the hon. Member for West Derby have pleaded, to give us some reassurance. My hon. Friend the Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) has spoken of the Minister's past espousal of the cause of minorities, and I am sure that he has not listened to this plea unmoved. We know that he will reply sympathetically, but we should like him also to reply in a way that will give real reassurance to those who have listened to this debate, none of whom has been entirely unmoved.

10.51 p.m.

The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. John Stonehouse)

In his remarkable book "The Lost World of the Kalahari", Laurens van der Post said that the bushman had no champion. They have found their champion here tonight in the person of the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover). I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman is anxious to use this new Clause as a peg on which to hang his case, which is not new to him, on behalf of this minority in Botswana. I respect that purpose, and I think that the whole Committee has been moved by the way in which he pursued this case.

The Committee may not be aware that many bushmen have already been absorbed into the Botswana community, but there are three groups which can still be identified. There are some 6,000 nomadic bushmen, who live in the interior and fend for themselves. There are some 4,000 who live on the farms in the Ghanzi part of Botswana, and many of these are associated with European farms there. There are about 14,000 who live for most of the time in the villages of the Bantu tribes. I think that those who have spoken on the Clause are concerned about all three groups, and I want to deal with the points they have made.

First of all—and I would ask the Committee to follow me in this—I think that it will be a slight on the Government of Dr. Seretse Khama and his colleagues if we begin to introduce Clauses of this character into the Bill just before Botswana obtains independence. The automatic comment on that would be: "Britain has had responsibility for 81 years—why has she not done this before? Why does she wait until the 59th minute of the 11th hour before introducing a provision like this? If there has been neglect of the bushmen in the past, it is the responsibility of Britain. It is no good coming at the last moment, trying to impose these conditions on a newly-independent country, when Britain has not accepted responsibility in the past."

I think that that would be the reply we would get if we started to introduce this sort of Clause, and on that ground alone I would ask the Committee not to accept this proposal. But I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman in moving the Clause, and his hon. Friends in speaking to it, are anxious to pursue the spirit of their idea and are not wedded to this particular formula.

There is the other point that it is not necessarily the case that the formula would survive after independence. What we want is something that will survive after independence, and be a real safeguard to the bushmen. The real safeguard is the acceptance by the other people in this newly-independent State of the fact that the bushmen are equal with them in every respect, and are entitled, as human beings, to respect and economic opportunity, as well as education, with everyone else.

Dr. M. P. Winstanley (Cheadle)

Surely the point is that the bushmen are not equal? They do not want to be equal. What they need, if they are to be preserved, is active and positive assistance in order to preserve themselves. If they are treated as equals they will perish and disappear.

Mr. Stonehouse

This is a difficult problem, because many of the nomadic bushmen regard their way of life as superior to ours, and who are we to say that their way of life may not be superior to ours? They are equal in the eyes of the law and in terms of opportunity to vote. So far as concerns the constitution of the independent State of Botswana, the bushmen will be equal to everybody else. I have no doubt at all that the Government of Seretse Khama will be anxious to preserve this position, not only after independence, but for all time. I think the Committee knows Seretse Khama and knows that there has been no better man for the defence of the rights of these men.

Sir D. Glover

I know that the hon. Gentleman approaches this matter in a sympathetic manner, but the trouble is that so little is known about these people. I know that Seretse Khama is absolutely bang on, a great progressive who will do a wonderful job for the people of Bechuanaland, but the people who have been assimilated are chattel slaves. They are not equal in the eyes of those with whom they are living. They are part of the farming community and are in fact slaves of the community.

Mr. Stonehouse

I cannot wholly accept that. I think the Silberbauer Report, referred to by the hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr), whose comments I echo—it is a remarkable document which I recommend hon. Members to read—showed that, far from being slaves, many of these bushmen were operating in a client relationship which cannot be identified with slavery as referred to by the hon. Member for Ormskirk. It is to be hoped that that relationship will improve and that the bushmen will become more and more conscious of their inherent rights as years go by. I think there is every chance that they will do so.

There is already evidence, as a result of the elections when the bushmen participate as electors along with the others, to suggest that this shows them that they are entitled to these rights and, as a result, they are more anxious to secure the rights they should enjoy.

Sir Frederic Bennett (Torquay)

I have been listening with interest to this discussion. I think I should interpret the feelings of my hon. Friends if I said that of course we accept the constitutional rights as set out, but, as has been shown in the case of Canadians and Eskimos and Red Indians and in the case of Australian Aborigines, there was a feeling of trusteeship towards these people until they were in an intellectual and social position in which they could take advantage of the rights written into the constitution. What happens in the interim is what causes worry to my hon. Friends.

Mr. Stonehouse

I think that the words used in this debate will not go unheeded in Botswana, but I think that already Dr. Seretse Khama has recognised the importance of taking notice of this matter now that he has been given this responsibility. We have also to recognise that in the last few years they have had enormous problems of famine and drought. In these circumstances, everybody is sentenced to poverty of a degree that none of us in this Committee could possibly understand. We hope that as the country emerges from this poverty and backwardness, the bushmen will have equal opportunity along with everybody else to develop.

I wish to talk about two or three points that were raised by the hon. Member for Harborough, who knows the bushmen and who made a number of suggestions. He asked about the reaction to the Silberbauer Report. At least three boreholes have been provided in the Central Kalahari game reserve. As to educational opportunity, I believe that in the areas where bushmen live together with the other tribes, they will have an opportunity for education along with the other tribes.

I will look into the hon. Member's question about the special provision in the Ghanzi area of new facilities, although I very much doubt whether the Colonial Development Corporation could take up this idea specifically for the bushmen. It would, I think, be against the custom and the spirit of the C.D.C. that it should operate projects in a Commonwealth country for a community within a community. It would probably be inappropriate for the C.D.C. to try to differentiate between different communities or tribes within one of these countries. I am, however, sure that if the C.D.C. were to extend its enterprise, which is already considerable in Botswana—everybody knows about the abattoir at Lobatsi which has been very helpful—this would be helpful to the bushmen as well as to the other communities in Botswana.

I should like to look with more care into the question of the boundary of the Central Kalahari game reserve before giving a categorical answer concerning the boundaries. I assure the Committee, however, that in the constitution—and this partly answers the question of the hon. Lady the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dame Joan Vickers)—there will be the continuing protection for the game reserve to be available to the bush-men. Other communities will be pro hibited from going into the game reserve. This will be provided for in the constitution, so that it will be a fairly permanent safeguard.

As the Committee will know, the game reserve is an area in the centre of Botswana of 19,000 square miles where most of the nomadic bushmen live. They live with and off the game. They hunt only when they need the food. They are not indiscriminate in their killing of the game. It is, therefore, a game and a bushmen reserve. This area will continue to be protected for the nomadic bushmen in that part of Botswana. This, I am glad to say, has been endorsed by all the political groups who came together in 1963 to discuss the future constitution of Botswana. That will be a fairly fundamental safeguard for the nomadic bush-men.

As to the others, we must rely on the good sense, for which we all have great respect, of the Botswana Ministers, led by Dr. Seretse Khama, to ensure that the bushmen have equal rights with the other Batswana in this new independent State. I have no doubt that we can rely on the Botswana Ministers to honour their sincere regard for the equality of all human beings, whatever tribe they may belong to, and that, whether or not they are bushmen, they will be considered, in the newly-independent State, as equal human beings with the rest.

I do not believe that it would be appropriate for our aid to be tied with strings in the way suggested. I appreciate the object of the hon. Member for Ormskirk in putting forward his point of view but it would, I repeat, be inappropriate, a slight and an assumption of on the part of the Botswana Ministers if we were to try and tie our aid to some particular project on behalf of the bushmen in advance of that aid being allowed. I ask the Committee not to go along with the new Clause but to rely on the good sense and good will of the Botswana administration towards the bushmen.

Mr. Farr

Will there be a representative in the Legislative Assembly of the people of the Central Kalahari Reserve?

Mr. Stonehouse

I do not think that there will be directly, but we believe that the bushmen are and will be playing an increasing part in the political life of the country. They have votes like everyone else and, as they have educational opportunity, we hope that they will make their presence felt all the more. They are, in numbers, a very small community and it is better for them really that their influence should be felt in more integration in political terms with the other tribes rather than that there should be special provision for them. The Central Kalahari Game Reserve is being reserved for the bushmen and, for the nomadic bushmen, that is very good protection indeed.

I thank all those hon. Members who have taken part in this debate but, as I have said, I am not able to accept the new Clause. However, I am sure that the words spoken tonight and the pleas that have been made will not go unheeded in Botswana and I am sure that what hon. Members are aiming at will certainly be achieved as a result of the good will that will be achieved through independence.

11.9 p.m.

Mr. Graham Page (Crosby)

I have listened patiently to the debate and hoped that we should have a far more satisfactory answer from the Under-Secretary of State. It is no answer to the pleas made by my hon. Friend the Member for Ormskirk (Sir D. Glover), that, to adopt either his new Clause or an adaptation of it, would be a slight on the new rulers of Botswana.

I had the honour of knowing Tshekedi Khama for many years. I acted for him professionally. He was in my home on many occasions and I stayed with him in Serowe on many occasions. He was a very humane man with the welfare of his people at heart, as is Dr. Seretse Khama. I will be frank. Tshekedi Khama was a member of the great ruling class of Bechuanaland, as is Dr. Seretse Khama. The Khamas ruled the land with a strong hand and kept the peace for many years. But throughout their rule the problem of the bushmen was never solved.

I know that this comes back on us as well, that we have some responsibility and that the problem was not solved in our time either. But two wrongs do not make a right. Now that the issue has been brought with such strength before the Committee tonight and before the House the other night by my hon. Friend the Member for Ormskirk, it is the responsibility of the Government to find a solution to the problem. It is not sufficient to say, "We hope that the new rulers will look after the bushmen and will find some solution." What the Under-Secretary of State was saying was that no Government in this country in the past had found a solution but that the granting of independence may find a solution, that the Government hope that it will and that we must trust the new rulers to find it. I do not think that that is sufficient now that the matter has been raised with such force.

Some course should be taken along the lines proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Ormskirk if not strictly in accordance with his new Clause. There are many ways in which we can do this. The offer of help, the co-operation from C.D.C. has been suggested. There are many ways, and it is a matter of choosing the best, but it is insufficient, it is criminal, to sit back now and say that we have no solution to suggest, that we must not create a slight on the new rulers, that we must just leave it to them to think it out, with no particular offer of assistance to them in thinking out their problems.

I am sure that had Tshekedi Khama been alive now—and I have always looked on him as one of the greatest African statesmen, if not the greatest—he would have supported my hon. Friend in trying to find a solution to this problem. In those days when he was pressing for a democratic government in Bechuanaland he thought that by giving the vote and having a democratic government there these sort of problems would be solved, but they will not be solved just by themselves, without some assistance from us now that we are granting independence. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will think again about this question, because everyone who has spoken tonight has had some knowledge and connection with Botswana and has that country at heart.

11.12 p.m.

Sir D. Glover

The Joint Under-Secretary of State—I do not criticise him—has spoken with great sympathy, but I find his reply completely unsatisfactory. It seems to me that when we are dealing with a problem of people who cannot make their voice heard the House takes what I call a legalistic line. Why do we not take the same line with the people in Rhodesia? Why do we not say that the Government there are in power, and that therefore we must not interfere? This is completely illogical.

I am not going to divide the House. I do not think that it would serve any useful purpose, for the Government's will would prevail, and it would create the wrong atmosphere in Botswana. But here we are dealing with a problem of voiceless people. If they were voiceful and were in London today with a deputation seeing the Colonial Office we should not be having this debate tonight. We are having the debate only because they are voiceless people who cannot fight for their own rights. If they could, it would be written into the Constitution that their rights would be safeguarded. I am not criticising the hon. Gentleman or his Government. I am certain that my right hon. and hon. Friends are equally responsible, and that if they were on the other side of the House they would probably be taking exactly the same line. But that is not the point.

The hon. Gentleman talks about the Silberbauer Report. Every person who knows anything about this territory would tell one that the Silberbauer Report is the most slanted report in favour of the Government of Bechuanaland of any published in the last 20 years. It is not a true picture of these people. It brings out all the highlights of their advancement and none of their degradation. It is not a fair report.

People to whom I have spoken have all said that it is the most slanted report they have ever read about the problem of the bushmen of the Kalahari and Bechuanaland. That is not being unfair to Seretse Khama. I believe that he is a great leader. He will do a great deal for his country. But let us be quite honest. Even with our communications and with our society, how many other hon. Members take an interest in the problems of hon. Members who come here to represent minorities in, for example, the north of Scotland or the Orkneys?

The average annual income per head in the country is probably £10 or £15. Does the hon. Gentleman mean that Seretse Khama, the head of the Khama tribe, faced with grinding poverty among his own people, will have the power or the will to take, perhaps, £1 a year from each of those people to protect the bushmen? Just think of the political pressures he would face. It is not as though the rest of the Bantu in that country are earning £1,000 a year and a little bit of aid to the bushmen would be unimportant. What it means is that some Bantu will suffer from starvation so that some bushmen will not die from starvation.

What the Under-Secretary of State has said tonight offers no solution or satisfactory answer to the problem. Once we have passed this Bill, we have no further responsibility. Every independent observer will say that the great belief of the bulk of the people of Bechuanaland, or Botswana, is that the sooner the bushmen die out the better. This is their deeply held belief. Today, we are the protecting power. This is our moment of truth. I admit that we have a deplorable record. But that is no answer. It is no good saying that because they were going to starve 10 years ago, we can be quite happy to let them starve now.

I know our record is deplorable—I do not mind if the hon. Gentleman criticises my party or anyone else—but we are now at our moment of truth. Unless we do something to protect these people, we are condemning them to death. Let us make no bones about it. Let the House of Commons be quite clear in its mind. It is as simple as that. We are condemning them to death because the bulk of the population think that the sooner they die the better.

Are Her Majesty's Government and the House of Commons prepared to take that responsibility on their shoulders? We can avoid it not at any great cost in money but by ensuring that there is someone with the responsibility to look after the interests of this defenceless minority—I do not suggest that they will be driving about in Rolls-Royces or anything silly like that—and to ensure that in the fabric of the nation their rights are protected. There must be someone with a voice outside their own country, at the United Nations or anywhere else, who can say that their Government are being unfair to the bushmen.

Let us not be squeamish about the alternative, if no one has that voice. The Under-Secretary has been very kind, and I thank him for the generous tribute he paid to me at the beginning of his reply, but I want him and the House to be in no doubt. Unless he, as the representative of Her Majesty's Government, takes some steps to protect the rights of this small voiceless minority, 25 years from now we shall be able to have the Requiem Mass over their demise, for they will all be dead.

Question put and negatived.

Schedule agreed to.

Bill reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed without Amendment