HC Deb 11 July 1966 vol 731 cc938-43
2. Mr. Biffen

asked the Minister of Labour how many wage and salary settlements during 1965 were the results of negotiations which were initiated with no specific claim being made by the employees affected.

Mrs. Shirley Williams

In the larger industries or negotiating units covering 10,000 or more workers I know of 187 settlements which became effective in 1965, of these 91 resulted from claims which were not expressed in specific terms.

Mr. Biffen

Is it not rather disturbing news? Does it mean that in 91 cases claims were initiated without any specific figure? If that is so, how will the hon. Lady or her right hon. Friend know whether such claims fall within or outside the norm and whether they should be referred to the Prices and Incomes Board?

Mrs. Williams

No, Sir. That is not correct. In most cases it is possible to make an estimate when the claim is first submitted. In most other cases the situation emerges as the claim progresses.

7. Mr. Nott

asked the Minister of Labour what proposals he has to provide a regional breakdown of the detailed analysis of wage earnings collected in April and October each year.

Mrs. Shirley Williams

Regional breakdowns of earnings of adult men by industry and by industry group are already regularly published.

Mr. Nott

Would not the Parliamentary Secretary agree that for regional planning it is necessary to have much greater detail in the regional figures than as yet exists? Will her right hon. Friend the Minister institute a procedure for collecting detailed figures?

Mrs. Williams

The hon. Member will, I hope, be aware that these statistics have only recently been improved. For example, the details by industry are now published in alternate issues of the quarterly publication Statistics on Incomes, Prices, Employment and Production. In addition, the most recent inquiries are published together with the relevant article in the Ministry of Labour Gazette.

Miss Quennell

Are the Ministry of Labour regions exactly conterminous with the national regions? If not, what method of adjustment is used in the Ministry to ensure that the figures correspond?

Mrs. Williams

There are two regions in which the Ministry of Labour's regions differ from the recently established regions, but we are bringing these into line as from early 1967.

13. Mr. Marten

asked the Minister of Labour how soon after the months of April and October, respectively, the detailed information on wage earnings is available to his Department; how soon it is published; and what steps are being taken to reduce these periods.

Mrs. Shirley Williams

The information is available approximately three months after the end of April and October and provisional main results are released to the Press almost immediately; detailed results are published in the Ministry of Labour Gazette a month later. It is not possible to reduce these periods.

Mr. Marten

Does the hon. Lady agree that it is vital for the operation of the incomes policy to speed up this process so that we can study the movement of wage drift? Will she not make a more determined effort to get these figures more often and to make them available more quickly to the House? Secondly, what was the committee to which the hon. Lady referred in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins), on Question No. 5, which was satisfied with the statistics provided by the Ministry of Labour?

Mrs. Williams

The committee was an official committee of the Departments concerned. In reply to the remainder of the hon. Member's supplementary question, which I regard as a very fair one, I would say that we have tried to do two things. One is to see whether interim reports would give an adequate reflection of the final results, but I regret to say that they do not. Secondly, we have tried to ascertain whether we could shorten the period. The hon. Member will, however, be aware that this is a voluntary inquiry, and in our experience it is the firms employing the largest numbers of employees which tend to respond later in the period given them to reply.

Mr. Frank Allaun

Would it not be better if all this concern about keeping down wages was devoted to keeping down overseas arms expenditure? Is it not the latter rather than the former which is primarily responsible for the deficit in our balance of payments?

33. Mr. Biffen

asked the Minister of Labour if he now possesses sufficient information to determine the rates of wages actually paid by employers and the extent to which these differ from negotiated or statutory rates; and if he will make a statement.

Mrs. Shirley Williams

I have comprehensive information about statutory and nationally negotiated rates of wages. If further information about rates paid is required in order to assess a claim, offer, or settlement, the organisation concerned is asked to provide it.

Mr. Biffen

But is the hon. Lady aware that a Ministry of Labour publication last September stated that information was not available? In view of that, is it not remarkable complacency for her to come to the Box and say that the Department is satisfied with the comprehensive nature of statistics available to the Government?

Mrs. Williams

Statistics, by their nature, have to deal with the broad position. The hon. Gentleman's Question is concerned with rates paid individually by firms. He will be aware that the early warning system will give an opportunity to follow up the details with further investigations.

Mr. Ashley

Would not my hon. Friend agree that the amount of statistical material from her Department is much better and exceeds the amount of material given since 1964?

Mrs. Williams

That is very accurate.

43. Mr. Kenneth Lewis

asked the Minister of Labour if he will compile figures of salary drift similar to those published for wages drift; and if he will publish those figures.

Mrs. Shirley Williams

No, Sir. The determination of salaries, many of which are negotiated on an individual basis, does not permit the compilation of a salary rates index for comparison with the index of salary earnings.

Mr. Lewis

Does not the hon. Lady agree that many of the increases are not negotiated on an individual basis and that it is not sufficient merely to have half the story, namely, information as to wages? It is necessary to have the other half of the story, namely, information about salaries, if there is to be an incomes policy.

Mrs. Williams

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that there is an annual inquiry into salaries which covers 4 mil- lion out of the 7 million salaried employees in industry. The hon. Gentleman will also be aware that we make monthly inquiries from 8,000 firms in total, covering both salaried and non-salaried employees.

Mr. Moyle

Is not the Minister aware that these problems would be easier of solution if employers were placed under an obligation collectively to negotiate terms and conditions of employment with their staff employees and recognised trade unions?

Sir A. V. Harvey

Is the hon. Lady aware that the state of the economy will not wait many more months? If the Government want to get things right, they will have to deal with salaries, wages and dividends at one go at fairly short notice.

Mrs. Williams

The hon. Gentleman is speaking to the converted.

49. Mr. Gresham Cooke

asked the Minister of Labour how he determines by what amount salaries increase on account of salaried posts being filled at increased payments and fringe benefits when vacancies have arisen.

Mrs. Shirley Williams

It would be quite impossible to assess the total effect of any cases of this kind. This does not mean, however, that a particular case would not be examined if it was thought necessary.

Mr. Gresham Cooke

Is it not true that the information coming to the Ministry about salaries is sadly deficient? The Ministry does not know about salary annual increases or about when men are taken on at the higher rate. In view of this, is it not impossible for the Government to establish an incomes policy for salary earners?

Mrs. Williams

No, this is not correct. Both in terms of salary rates and in terms of salary earnings, the Ministry has a great deal of information. The point to which the hon. Gentleman has drawn attention in his Question is a difficult one, because a judgment has to be made as to whether this reflects greater responsibilities or whether it is simply a way to increase the salary being paid. However, I would point out to the hon. Gentleman that the Ministry is now undertaking a detailed inquiry into such things as the effect of fringe benefits on salaries and on other types of earnings, and this should throw still further light on the problem.

Sir L. Heald

Is the hon. Lady aware that the House is very grateful to her for the brevity and courtesy with which she has dealt with almost 50 Questions?

Mr. William Hamilton

What is the legal distinction between a salary and a wage? Will my hon. Friend be assured that the incomes policy would be more generally accepted if and when the Government's information on all incomes becomes more and more comprehensive?

Mrs. Williams

I recognise the importance of making this information as comprehensive as possible. This afternoon I have given the House a number of details of ways in which we are trying to improve this information. The main difficulty is the individual settlement. I reassure my hon. Friend by telling him that an individual settlement can be referred to the National Board for Prices and Incomes just as much as a collective settlement.