HC Deb 05 July 1966 vol 731 cc368-82

9.12 p.m.

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Herbert W. Bowden)

I beg to move, That a Select Committee be appointed to review the law of Parliamentary Privilege as it affects this House and the procedure by which cases of privilege are raised and dealt with in this House and to report whether any changes in the law of privilege or practice of the House are desirable: That Mr. Bellenger, Mr. Deedes, Mr. Maurice Edelman, Mr. Michael English, Mr. Michael Foot, Mr. Quintin Hogg, Mr. Anthony Kershaw, Mr. Harold Lever, Mr. James Ramsden, Mr. S. C. Silkin, Mr. G. R. Strauss, and Mr. Jeremy Thorpe be Members of the Committee: That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records; to sit notwithstanding any Adjournment of the House; and to report from time to time: That three be the Quorum.

The House may recall that during the last Parliament there were two occasions when the Committee of Privileges had before it cases recommended to it by the House to decide whether Parliamentary privilege should be invoked. During the course of our deliberations on those two cases, we concluded that it was obvious to us as members of that Committee that a rather longer and cooler look should be given to the whole subject of Parliamentary privilege. That was confirmed at the time by articles in the newspapers, and I recall particularly one learned article by the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) with which I considerably agreed.

I said in a debate at the time that I felt that at some time the House should consider looking at the whole subject of Parliamentary privilege, certainly not with a view to adding to our privileges, but looking at the position as it was, because, when it has to deal with cases, the present Committee of Privileges is always bogged down with precedents and, rather as with Standing Order No. 9 at the moment, is tied by what has happened over many years in the past.

The Motion is in accordance with the promise given to the House at the time seriously to consider whether we should set up a special Select Committee to consider the: subject of Parliamentary privilege. It was felt, and I entirely agreed, that this should be done by the Committee of Privileges itself, because, as will be appreciated, at any moment it might be involved in having to take a decision on a matter referred to it by the House as to whether Parliamentary privilege should be invoked.

The Select Committee which I am now proposing has terms of reference which have been agreed in the usual way through the usual channels. They will give the proposed Select Committee an opportunity to look at the whole subject of the law of Parliamentary privilege as it affects the House, bearing in mind that there is no desire whatever to add to our privileges in any way. It will be appreciated that this is a very difficult task and may take some considerable time. It is a task which, I am sure, ought to be carried out distinctly and apart from the review of any immediate case which might come before the Select Committee of Privileges itself. That is why the proposal is in this form.

The composition of the Select Committee has, of course, in the usual way, been a matter of discussion through the usual channels. We have combined the experience of hon. Members who have been here for many years with that of newer Members who may have some new ideas a ad with that of Members representing the legal profession. I know that they have an onerous task to do. I think that the selection has been about right, and I hope that the House will approve the setting up of this Select Committee.

9.15 p.m.

Mr. Arthur Lewis (West Ham, North)

I am glad that the Leader of the House has given us an explanation for this Motion, the background to it and has gone into it at some length. I am glad, also, that he has mentioned that it is necessary to look back with knowledge to what has happened in the past. I believe that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House celebrates his 21st birthday here today, as I do. I wish him and myself many happy returns. I hope that I might be here in 21 years' time and to see him here, too.

It has always been understood in this House that questions of privilege should be dealt with by old and respected hon. Members. I do not mean old in years, but old in knowledge and experience of the House. Invariably, these Members have been Privy Councillors or those who have been, as we say fathers of the House. I mean fathers in the sense of membership, not because they have the largest families. These have been the sort of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who have served on the Committee of Privileges and I was therefore rather surprised to see this new Committee.

I want to raise one or two points and, first, I want to ask you, Mr. Deputy Speaker for guidance. As I want to quote from the Motion, I hope that may quote the name—

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sidney Irving)

Order. The hon. Gentleman is asking guidance of the Chair. The hon. Gentleman must name hon. Members' constituencies.

Mr. Lewis

May I have your guidance? I want to quote from the Motion and I assume that I would be in order in quoting the names of the hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who are mentioned there because I would not be referring to them by name but referring to the Motion.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

The hon. Member must refer to hon. Members of the House by their constituencies.

Mr. Lewis

Then it will be rather difficult, because it is very hard to remember the constituencies of hon. Members. I see their names on the Order Paper, but it is the custom to pause and wait, and turn to the hon. or right hon. Gentleman to elicit his constituency from him. I can remember the names of the older Members and I will attempt to deal with them first.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) is, of course, an old and respected Member. When I say old I mean old in experience of the House. Far be it from me to say that the right hon. Gentleman is old in years, because both he and his constituents, and I am certain, his constituency party would resent that. He is an experienced and respected Member of the House. He is a former Minister and he has been active in this House for many years. No one would query his appointment. The next right hon. Member I shall refer to is the Member for Ashford (Mr. Deedes). I was about to say that his deeds are known to us. He, too, is a respected hon. Member who has given long and faithful service to the House. He is very active and can be seen going about his business, doing his stint. We know that he has been of great service to the Opposition. He was a former Minister. Here I interpose the hon. Member for—

Mr. Robert Cooke (Bristol, West)

The zoo.

Mr. Lewis

I do not know whether that is Parliamentary. The hon. Member for Bristol, West (Mr. Robert Cooke) boasts of the fact that he is a Member of or for the zoo; he will know which it is. I accept his point.

I have no personal interest in this matter. I give you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the assurance that at no time in my 20 years' membership have I been asked to serve on or be associated with any Select Committee. I beg your pardon, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You will be pleased to know that after 21 years of endeavour I have at long last been appointed to serve on one of these bodies. But it is not the one with which we are concerned. I have no interest in or have any wish to be considered for the Select Committee proposed in this or any other Motion.

I am serious when I mention the hard work and endeavour of the Members who serve on these Committees. I am not suggesting that I, or any other hon. Member, should or should not be in the list on the Order Paper. But I was going through the list to try to ascertain why they have been selected, appointed or adopted through, as the Leader of the House says, "the usual channels". This is an expression of personal opinion which I believe is shared by a number of hon. Members. I am wondering how these wild and weary and weird usual channels operate.

Let me get back to the question of those who have been nominated to serve on this Select Committee. There is the hon. Member for Coventry, North (Mr. Edelman), who is a very active Member. He does a lot of work for the Council of Europe and is very often in Strasbourg. Perhaps that is where he is now. He is an old and respected Member. I know little about the next Member. I see that he has a very good name, that he is a good English man. He is the Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. English). He is probably very knowledgeable about our Parliamentary procedure.

Then there is the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot). We cannot forget the constituency of Ebbw Vale, for various reasons. It is held now by a very active Member. He is often here and often raises points which I think help the Government—and help the Opposition. I gave my hon. Friend notice that I would attack him. I hope that he does not mind my attacking him in his absence. He told me that he had a very important meeting to attend. Perhaps he has run out because he did not want to hear me attack him. He made some remark to that effect as he left.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale has had great experience. He has been in the House for many years, and he has taken part in many matters connected with privilege. However, I do not think that that alone is any reason for selecting an hon. Member, because it would apply to a number of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen who have been here for 20 or 30 years. All of them claim great knowledge and experience in matters pertaining to privilege, and all of them could claim great knowledge of our procedures. They could all walk round with bundles of papers under their arms, taking a kind of market survey, saying to other hon. Members, "I came here six months ago, and I am going to set this place alight. I am the man who can really show how things should be done. If any Committee is to be set up, I ought to be on it."

That may be the way that my hon. Friend was appointed; I do not know. I was going to say that it may be because he often creates trouble, but that would be putting my foot in it. I would not suggest that he causes trouble, but very often he has something to say and he comes forward with ideas and suggestions. That may be why he was appointed; I do not know.

Then we have the right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg). His claim cannot be overlooked, because he is right in more ways than once. Be is right hon. and honourable He is a Queen's Counsel—a legal luminary. He is very active in the House both for the Opposition and for the Government, and we are grateful to the electors of St. Marylebone for letting us have him here, because he helps us so often, and, as one of my hon. Friends says, he is very often "bonkers", but that does not matter. We like him, and we understand why he is nominated.

I notice that my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale is sitting behind me. To save being stabbed in the back, I hope that my hon. Friend does not think that I would say anything about him when he was not present. I am rather surprised that we have Members such as my hon. Friend appointed to a Committee to discuss matters connected with privilege. He has never been a member of the Committee of Privileges and has never been within the wheels of the manipulations and manœuvrings that go on within the accepted and usual channels where all the jiggery-pokery takes place. As far as I am aware, he has never been associated with it. If he has, he has been misleading not only me, but many other hon. Members on both sides of the House.

What are his qualifications? Is it because he represents a great Welsh constituency? Is it because he represents a section of the steel industry, and we have to have men of steel on the Committee? Is it because he has from time to time taken an active interest in the question of privilege? In his case, I bow to his great knowledge and experience of our Parliamentary ways and procedures. He has great knowledge and experience of privilege and has taken an active part in the business of the House over the years. Therefore, I do not complain about his being a member of the Committee. I am sure that his appointment will be pleasing to him, as it is to me. The only reason for my raising this is to ascertain how he does it. How is it that he can worm his way into this list of acceptable right hon. and hon. Gentlemen? I think that that is a fair summary of what I was saying while my hon. Friend was out of the Chamber.

I assure my hon. Friend that when I attack him in his absence I do so not because of any personal malice or because I have a desire to unseat him from this position. It is merely that I want to know whether he was elected to it, appointed to it, or pushed into it. If he went through the usual channels, he might tell me, either in the House or afterwards, how and where these usual channels operate. Which route does one take? How does one wriggle into them? My hon. Friend has discovered where these usual channels are. I have been trying for 21 years to discover them but have not done so. Therefore, I have not discovered how one gets into them. I must refer to my hon. Friend at length because he is the only Member on this list who is present in the Chamber. He must, therefore, carry the cross for the other hon. Members who will be appointed, selected or whatever it is, to this Committee.

My hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever) is a greatly respected Member of the House, but he, too, is not here at the moment. He is usually present, taking an active part in our proceedings. He is certainly present when the Finance Bill is being discussed. We have heard my hon. Friend make speeches lasting for three hours. I have not spoken for that length of time, but I could go on for three hours on this subject. My hon. Friend religiously attends our debates and takes an active part in the proceedings of the House. He is the sort of Member whom I would expect to be appointed to this Committee.

The next name on the list is that of the right hon. Member for Harrogate (Mr. Ramsden). I can understand him being nominated for selection because he, too, is an old respected Member of the House and has done great service for it. He knows our procedure and is obviously an ideal nomination.

I do not know much about my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dulwich (Mr. S. C. Silkin), but he has a very honourable name. He is the son of a famous father, who is in another place, and the brother of our new Chief Whip. I am sure that this is not why he was nominated. It may be that he has been nominated because he is a great lawyer, but even this is doubtful because there are many other great lawyers on both sides of the House who have not been nominated to this Committee. Anyway, I have no doubt that my hon. Friend will be an active Member of the Committee, if and when it is selected.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Lambeth—

Mr. Cyril Bence (Dunbartonshire, East)

Vauxhall.

Mr. Lewis

My hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Bence) is a Scottish Member and therefore does not know that Vauxhall and Lambeth are the same. Whatever the Boundary Commission may say, we know our London, and Vauxhall and Lambeth are the same. Vauxhall is part of Lambeth. My right hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss) is also an old and respected Member of this House. He has been very active over the years. He is a former Minister of Transport, and he has great knowledge of our rules of procedure, and so on. Then we come to the solitary Liberal Member. Again the usual channels have been working in order to insure proper representation.

Mr. David Steel (Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles)

indicated dissent.

Mr. Lewis

The hon. Member shakes his head, but I am sure that the usual channels worked for his hon. Friend. He was not present when my right hon. Friend spoke or he would have heard my right hon. Friend say that the names were collected by the usual channels. He must accept the word of my right hon. Friend that the usual channels operated in the case of his hon. Friend the Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe). He was probably selected because he is another great lawyer. A surprising number of lawyers are selected to serve on these Committees.

Mr. Geoffrey Rhodes (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East)

The House is full of them.

Mr. Lewis

Not at the moment. Many of them are often busy in the courts, but not at this time of night. It is difficult to find lawyers in the actual Chamber.

Mr. W. R. van Straubenzee (Wokingham)

There are at least three lawyers in the House now.

Mr. Lewis

Three out of 300 is not a bad percentage.

Anyway, I have been sitting here working out how the names on this list were selected. It could not have been because of length of service, and it could not have been entirely on the question of knowledge of procedure, although my right hon. Friend said that he took cognisance of those points.

I should point out that I have no desire to be considered for or in any way associated with this or any other Select Committee. If I were selected, I would refuse to serve. But I want to know about the usual channels because new Members often approach me and ask, "How does one find out where the usual channels are? Where is the office? Where is the door? How does one get in?" They have not been here for ten minutes, however—and certainly not for three months—before they not only know the usual channels but are running them, while hon. Members who have been here for twenty or thirty years are still trying to find out where they are. In no time at all these new Members become Parliamentary Private Secretaries, Deputy Whips and then Chief Whips, and they are there.

But when new Members ask me where the usual channels are, I cannot tell them. I want to find out, so that I can say to them, "I declare that I do not want anything to do with it, but as you are a new Member who has not found the golden key, I can tell you how to go about it.

I do not know why the Motion was framed in this manner, so that we had no opportunity of tabling Amendments. I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House will agree that I am in no way connected with the usual channels. I have never been consulted by the usual channels about anything—as would be expected. But I want to know how this list was decided upon by the usual channels. How is it done? Do hon. Members write in? Is it done by ballot?—because we have ballots. I must admit that sometimes, such as when we go through the procedure of balloting for private Members' time, the Whips on both sides come along and try to interfere. Although we have come to a democratic decision on a free vote that we shall have a certain amount of private Members' time, the Whips come along and try to interfere. Do hon. Members write in or do they whisper in someone's ear, "If there is a job going or a chance of getting on a committee, how can I do so? Do I have to get into the packet of some body or ask someone?"

I should have liked to make some suggestions about hon. Members who would have been useful on this committee. My hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Sydney Silverman) is a past-in aster on the question of privilege. He certainly knows a little about it and would have been an ideal member of the Committee. He could have been considered through the usual channels. Perhaps he was. If not, why not?

Other hon. Members might feel that they would like to have served on this or any other committee. My point is a general one. There is another hon. and learned Gentleman who is a little non persona grata with the Front Bench at the moment, but he is knowledgeable and is another legal gentleman—

Mr. Bence

The hon. and learned M ember for Northampton (Mr. Paget).

Mr. Lewis

My hon. Friend tells me who he is although I have discussed this with no hon. Member present. I tell a lie: I had two words with the Leader of the House to tell him that I would oppose the Motion, but that is not a discussion.

One of the new hon. Members is also on the Committee. A brilliant Parliamentarian, my witty and lovable hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale), has been looking for a job and the Front Bench would have been wise to consider him for some such position as this, as he has a deep and intimate knowledge of our rules and procedure. He could spare the time to serve on the Committee. Perhaps he was given this opportunity: I do not know—[Interruption.] The Leader of the House is having a discussion with a Whip. They need not talk about moving the closure, because it is not my intention to talk the Motion out. The Chief Whip need not have me on the carpet for opposing Government business, because this is not Government business but House of Commons business. Some of my hon. Friends may say that it is terrible of me to oppose Government business. I sometimes do that and I probably will do it in future. However, this is not Government business, so I hope that my hon. Friends who want to be 100 per cent.— plus loyal to the Government will accept that this is House of Commons business and that, as such, hon. Members should take great interest in it. I will, therefore, not attempt to talk it out.

Having said that, even if this discussion were to continue until 10 o'clock I do not think that the Closure should be moved because, after all, there is no real urgency about this. It could be discussed on another occasion. The House has not had long to discuss it tonight, and I hope that my right hon. Friend will not consider that I have spoken for too long. I do not often speak in the House and we do not often discuss these Committees. We tend to appoint them on the nod. That is why many hon. Members want to know how hon. Members are appointed to them, and if my right hon. Friend does not get this through tonight there will be nothing to prevent him from bringing it forward on another occasion, when I may wish to table Amendments. Then I may wish to name certain hon. Members who might like to volunteer to take part in the Committee's deliberations. If hon. Members who are interested would have a word with me, I might, if the matter came up on another occasion, table suitably worded Amendments to get them included on the Committee.

Some hon. Members are on two, three or more Select Committees. They come to those of us who are not on them and tell us how hard they are working. We smile with glee to think of the hard work they are doing, but some of those who are smiling might also like the opportunity to take part in the deliberations of these Committees. I hope that my right hon. Friend will not suggest that an hon. Member need only put his name forward for appointment to these Committees. I know of some hon. Members who have tried for 10, 15, 20 and even 30 years to get on to Select Committees—who have tried through the usual channels and in every other way—but have not been successful. We see, therefore, that hon. Members are not appointed by that means. How are they appointed? My right hon. Friend should give an explanation.

Why, for example, has my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale been chosen for this work? After all, he has not been the most passive, helpful and obliging hon. Member on occasions. [Interruption.] It is true that he has tried to be helpful, but I do not see why that should qualify him to become a member of this Committee when those of my hon. Friends who did not insist on the House debating Vietnam should not be selected. Is it because my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale insisted that we debate Vietnam that his name was put forward? Or is there some other reason? If that is the reason, some of us could also clamour for a debate on Vietnam—not I, because I do not want to serve on the Committee, but some of my hon. Friends who would like to serve might clamour.

I therefore hope that my right hon. Friend will give us some information about how all this is done. I hope that he will not tell me that which is true—[Laughter.] I assure the House that that was an unconscious faux pas, because I would not for a moment suggest that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House would tell me anything that was untrue. But I hope that he will not just tell me that which is true in regard to the other side; that the Tories, when in power, used to do the same thing. I know that those usual channels worked in the same way when the party opposite was in power, but I expected that a Labour Government would operate the usual channels rather differently.

Appointment to these Committees should be discussed openly. The Committee of Selection might be drawn in. It might be possible to have a system of nomination, with names put on the Order Paper and hon. Members asked whether they would like to serve. I emphasise that I myself do not want to serve on this or any other Select Committee, but after an hon. Member has served the House for 20, 21, 22, or 30 years it would be nice for him at least on one occasion to be asked by the usual channels whether he would like to serve on one of these Committees or do this or that.

That would be welcome to the Member, and it would not mean too much trouble for the usual channels occasionally to ask long-serving and industrious Members whether they would like to serve. There are many hon. Members who could give good service. They are very knowledgeable and very experienced in all the ways of the House, and would welcome the opportunity to serve. It would be helpful to the House, too, if they were asked to sit on such Committees—

Mr. W. O. J. Robinson (Walthamstow, East)

Am I to take it that my hon. Friend is saying to the House that he would very much welcome an approach through the usual channels to sit on a number of Committees?

Mr. Lewis

The hon. Member has completely misunderstood me. I want the usual channels to approach hon. Members who have been here a long time and who would welcome the opportunity to serve; Members who have shown an interest over many years, and who would be ideally suited for the work. If the hon. Member asks whether I want such an invitation, I must repeat that years ago, as a young Member with only two or three years' experience, I tried to get on these Committees. I tried for seven or eight years through the usual channels, but met with no success. As a result, about 10 years ago I decided, first, do not ask; secondly, do not expect, and thirdly, do not want. I do not want or expect to serve, and I would not go on any of these Committees. Nevertheless, there are some hon. Members who would, and I hope that the Leader of the House will consider my suggestion. I can see that I have at last got some hon. Members opposite interested in this subject, and I hope that the House will have the opportunity to put down Amendments to this Motion.

9.55 p.m.

Mr. Robert Cooke (Bristol, West)

We have had a rare opportunity this evening of listening to the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) making a long and somewhat tortuous speech. I am sure that we are all delighted that at long last he has reached his great goal in public life, membership of the Kitchen Committee or whatever it was.

I support this Motion which seems to provide for a Committee with a pretty well-balanced membership. I shall not go into detail, but there will be Members of all three parties on it and we could say that all the attributes are here we have art and science, and letters joined. These hon. Members have a wide measure of Parliamentary experience.

We also have an element of controversy in the presence of the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot). It might be said in deference to the hon. Member for West Ham, North that this Committee will contain not a single Tory baronet. What better Committee could We have to look at new aspects of privilege? I am only sorry that in all the years of experience I have had in this House I know of no "usual channel" through which the hon. Member for West Ham, North could possibly pass.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

The Question is—

Mr. Arthur Lewis

I was hoping that as there are still five minutes to ten o'clock the Leader of the House—

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. The hon. Member cannot speak again without leave of the House.

Mr. Arthur Lewis

May I ask the leave of the House for a few minutes reply?

Hon. Members

No.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That a Select Committee be appointed to review the law of Parliamentary Privilege as it affects this House and the procedure by which cases of privilege are raised and dealt with in this House and to report whether any changes in the law of privilege or practice of the House are desirable:

That Mr. Bellenger, Mr. Deedes, Mr. Maurice Edelman, Mr. Michael English, Mr. Michael Foot, Mr. Quintin Hogg, Mr. Anthony Kershaw, Mr. Harold Lever, Mr. James Ramsden, Mr. S. C. Silkin, Mr. G. R. Strauss, and Mr. Jeremy Thorpe be Members of the Committee:

That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records; to sit notwithstanding any Adjournment of the House; and to report from time to time:

That three be the Quorum.