BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (Hansard, 1 July 1966)

§ Mr. Speaker
The Clerk will now proceed to read the Orders of the Day——

§ Mr. Heffer
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Am I allowed to ask whether it is right that the B.B.C. and various newspapers have been made aware that the Government have decided not to allow a debate in the House next week on the question of Vietnam, before such an announcement was made in the House? This will create great consternation amongst hon. Members. Am I in order in asking whether the Leader of the House could come to the House now and make a statement so that the matter can be discussed by hon. Members?

§ Mr. Michael Foot
Further to the point of Order, Mr. Speaker. While supporting very strongly what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer), as everyone will agree that it would be scandalous if any declaration were made to outside bodies about the business of the House without its being first announced here, could you tell us, Mr. Speaker, whether any representations have been made for a business statement to be made in the House, either now or later during our proceedings?

§ Mr. Atkinson
Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not usual, when a leading member of the Government announces a change in the order of business, for him to come to the House at the very first opportunity and explain how that change will take place, and give some effect to the promises that have been made?

§ Mr. Speaker
I can answer all three points of order at once. These are not matters for the Chair. To answer the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot), no representations have 2358 been made to Mr. Speaker about a business statement today.

§ Mr. Grimond
While fully accepting your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, has it not been a custom of the House that it is permissible, through the Chair, to ask the Government, on a matter of great importance such as this, whether they will make a statement, at least by the close of business today? Great determination has been shown by the House to have a debate on this matter. We understand that discussions have taken place. Surely, if for no other reason than to be courteous to hon. Members, a statement should be made today about how these conversations ended and why—if it is true—no debate is to be held.

§ Mr. Speaker
I can only repeat that it is not a matter for the Chair.

§ Mr. Rankin
Further to the point of order. Is it not the case that you, Mr. Speaker, are the guardian of the privileges and the procedure of the House? Would it not seem, at least from what we know at the moment, that these have been violated in that a statement which the House expected and which it was promised would be made here, has evidently been made in public? Is that not a violation of those privileges which you are here to protect?

§ Mr. Speaker
I assure the hon. Gentleman that Mr. Speaker does protect the privileges of the House. The Ruling is, I have said, that this is not a matter for me.

§ Mr. Mendelson
Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. It is customary, I submit, with respect, that through you hon. Members can make a request to the Leader of the House and to the Government, and that when an announcement has been made outside about a decision apparently being taken by the Leader of the House and by the Government, and apparently being communicated to the B.B.C., that no debate on this urgent matter of Vietnam will take place next week, and that other arrangements are going to be proposed a week later, we then have a right, through you, Mr. Speaker, to ask the Leader of the House to make a statement to the House at the first opportunity.

§ Mr. Emrys Hughes
Further to the point of order. Would it not be for the 2359 convenience of the House, Mr. Speaker, that hon. Members should know the details of Government business for the week after next? Is there any precedent for the House being treated in this way?

§ Mr. Paget
Is this a point of order at all, Mr. Speaker? Is it not really a point of privilege? So far as the privileges of the House are concerned, is not the announcement by some outside body, or the conveyance to some outside body, of something which is so intimately the concern of the House as the management of its own business a breach of our privileges?

§ Mr. Speaker
The answer to the hon. and learned Gentleman is in the negative. It is not a breach of our privileges.

§ The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Herbert Bowden)
I wonder whether I might help the House, Mr. Speaker. I was not aware that these points of order would be raised, or I should have been in my place at eleven o'clock. Nor am I aware of any communication with the B.B.C. or the Press about a change of business. But I can say that I hope to make a statement early next week about a change in business.

§ Mr. Grimond
While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for coming here and reassuring us that no statement has been made to the B.B.C. and the Press, may I ask him whether he is aware that what he has said is profoundly unsatisfactory? As I understand, no statement will be made until next week. Hon. Members are going away for the weekend and the whole country is now roused about the matter, and the House of Commons will be made to look absolutely absurd if it cannot tell the country whether it will debate Vietnam or not?
In a major issue like this, if we are to be so gagged and bound by our own procedure that we cannot make up our minds whether we shall discuss it, we have no right to claim to represent the people of the country. Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is true that there have been conversations through the usual channels and that offers of time have been made, and whether the less important of the business next week could not be moved to the week after so as to allow this debate to take place?

§ Mr. Bowden
I cannot move from the position that I have taken. I will make a business statement as soon as possible next week.

§ Mr. Michael Foot
Will my right hon. Friend make it absolutely clear that a statement on this matter will be made on Monday? Further, will he make it absolutely clear that there is no basis whatever for the statements made on the B.B.C., or for the statements that have apparently been communicated to the Press, saying that there is to be no debate on the subject next week? Will he make it clear that there has been no decision that sense whatever and that we shall have guidance on Monday about the business of the House during the coming week?
I would point out to my right hon. Friend that these matters were raised on points of order and were not communicated to him earlier because we thought that it would be very probable that a statement would be made in the House and that we should be able to put our questions on the basis of that statement. The points of order were raised precisely because no statement was made by my right hon. Friend in the first place.

§ Mr. Bowden
I cannot add to what I have said. I will make the business statement as soon as possible. I cannot promise it firmly for Monday, but it will be made as soon as possible.

§ Mr. Ridsdale
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some of us are disturbed that we cannot have an early debate, not for the reasons of the Left wing, but because the Japanese Government have seen fit to support the American action? We are disturbed, from the defence point of view, that we cannot be a bad ally in the Far East——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. We cannot debate the issue now.

§ Mr. Mendelson
Further to the point of order Mr. Speaker. Arising out of the statement by my right hon. Friend, surely there are two points that he should clear up for the House. First, in view of the urgency of the matter and the announcement that further bombing operations will take place in the next few days, why is it not possible for the Government to make a statement on a matter of real urgency?
2361 Secondly, do we take it from his statement that the B.B.C. has been putting out a bulletin based upon no information from Government sources about the business next week or the week after?

§ Mr. Bowden
I can certainly confirm the second point. As to the first point, I cannot possibly add to what I have already said. The Government must take the decision about a change in the business of the House. As soon as it is possible to make an announcement, I will make it.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I must protect today's business. The Lord President of the Council has said that he will be making a statement about business on Monday——

Hon. Members
No.

§ Mr. Bowden
I did not say that I would make the statement on Monday, Mr. Speaker. I said that I would make it as soon as possible next week.

§ Mr. Atkinson
Does not this whole situation demonstrate very clearly indeed the absolute need for us in this House to do something urgently about the position whereby we get an international situation——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. We cannot debate that now.