HC Deb 24 February 1966 vol 725 cc686-745

As Amended (in the Standing Committee), again considered.

6.35 p.m.

Dr. Mabon

This is a drafting Amendment which I have discussed with the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. Hendry). As the result of an Amendment which was made in Committee, the Clause was arranged containing its present wording. With their characteristic generosity and good grace, the Government have decided, despite our advice in Committee not to make the Amendment, to allow the Amendment to remain. However, in the interests of conformity—since the words "rating authority" are unqualified by the word "local" elsewhere in the Bill—we propose the Amendment. We do so without reflection on the wording originally proposed by the hon. Member for Aberdeen-shire, West and I hope that the House will therefore agree to the deletion of the word "local".

Mr. Forbes Hendry (Aberdeenshire, West)

This is not a momentous Amendment. It reflects, as the hon. Gentleman said, on an Amendment which was made in Committee. That Amendment was drafted by me. I would have accepted that my drafting was perhaps imperfect, although the hon. Gentleman has not said that. I gather that he is seeking to achieve uniformity. Although I prefer the wording of the Clause as it stands, I reciprocate the generosity to which he referred and accept the Amendment without further question.

Amendment agreed to.

Dr. Dickson Mabon

I beg to move, Amendment No. 4, in page 5, line 17 at the end to insert: Provided that where a notice given under this subsection by any person ceases to be in force as aforesaid that person shall not be entitled to give another such notice so as to entitle him to receive, under the next following subsection, an instalments statement relating to the period of twelve months commencing with 1st November next following the date when the first-mentioned notice ceased to be in force. This Amendment was pressed on us in consultations we had with local authorities in relation to other undertakings I gave in Committee, particularly concerning a later Amendment about the 21 days' notice which we discussed in Committee. The authorities represented to us that we should strengthen the provision in this matter so that there could be no abuse of the position. We have given careful thought to the matter and the Amendment is the result.

Its effect will be to prevent a ratepayer who has not kept up his instalments during the 12 month instalment period, and has subsequently had his notice cancelled by the rating authority, from giving a notice for the next 12 month period.

The Amendment is of particular relevance in Scottish circumstances because of the timetable in Scotland compared with England. Scottish authorities are worried in case a ratepayer who has entered on instalment arrangements in a particular November pays the rates due for the year ending in the following May, over the last six months of the year, but then does not continue with the payment of rates by instalments by making the appropriate payments to account in the months from May to November. Subsequently he may again give an instalment notice and pay his next year's rates over the last six months of the year.

We agree that it is unfair to rating authorities that this position should exist, and one hopes that very few people will abuse the system in that way.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Speaker

Amendment No. 6 is not selected, but I think that it would be for the convenience of the House if we discussed Amendment No. 6 with Amendment No. 5, which I propose to call in a moment, and also Amendments Nos. 7 8 and 9.

Dr. Dickson Mabon

I beg to move Amendment No. 5, in page 5, line 19, to leave out from "given" to "and" in line 20 and to insert: in any year at any time between the commencement of the year and the expiration of the period of twenty-one days beginning with the day on which the person receives the demand note for the rates for that year in respect of the hereditament to which the notice relates". You have advised us, Mr. Speaker, to have a discussion involving Amendments Nos. 5, 8 and 9, as well as Amendment No. 6, which you say has not been selected and Amendment No. 7. I did not quite follow whether we were to take Amendment No. 7 as well because, with respect, that Amendment deals with a rather different issue, and one might take Amendment No. 15 with it.

Mr. Speaker

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman—not Amendment No. 7.

Dr. Mabon

I am obliged, Mr. Speaker.

The effect of Amendments Nos. 5, 8 and 9—and I should also like to comment on Amendment No. 6—is to enable notice of election to pay rates by instalments to be given at any time between the start of the financial year and up to 21 days after the ratepayer has received his demand note. Under the Bill as it stands, notice can be given only during September and October. In Committee I undertook to see whether we could find a way to extend the period during which notice could be given, as it was thought essential that ratepayers should not lose the right to opt to pay by instalments before receiving their rate demand notes and know what rates were due from them. The limit for giving notice has been set at 21 days after receipt of the demand note. We thought that this was the best arrangement, and we have naturally discussed the subject with the local authorities.

I am sorry that the Government could not have seen their way to accept Amendment No. 6 A suggestion was made in Committee to take the date back as far into the year as 30th November, but most local authorities had a real objection to that being done. It is, indeed, the intention of some local authorities to try to bring nearer to the beginning of the rating year the date on which demand notes are issued. I am told that the reason for this sincere desire on their part is that increasing mechanisation in their offices is expected to enable them to speed up this process, and it is, of course, very much in their financial interests to try to secure this.

To be fair to the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. Hendry), I saw that the matter was raised with the Institute of Municipal Treasurers and Accountants, which body also endorsed the view advanced by a number of authorities that dating to 30th November, as the hon. Gentleman suggested, would embarrass them to some extent, and would certainly embarrass them in their commendable efforts to try to speed up the issue of demand notes. In view of that advice, and the Government's own predilection, we stick to the Amendment, which I hope will be accepted as an earnest of our good faith. I hope that the hon. Member will agree that it is a fair effort in the circumstances.

6.45 p.m.

Mr. Hendry

I am most grateful to the Under-Secretary for his endeavour to meet the arguments put earlier on this subject. Amendment No. 6 was a genuine attempt to simplify the wording of the Government's own Amendment. I take his point, and I am extremely glad to hear that local authorities in Scotland are trying to speed up the issue of rate demand notices, because the situation in Scotland is very unsatisfactory at the moment. I chose 30th November in order to try to get a definite date.

My objection to the idea of 21 days after receipt of rate notices was that it was an indeterminate date. A ratepayer might go to his local authority and deny that he had ever received a demand note for rates. That is a possibility. It is not unlikely that certain ratepayers would be away from home when the rate notices were issued. Mistakes can occur with the post. Sometimes these things are never received. I was trying to find a date which would approximate as far as possible to the date the Government had in mind. It might be worthwhile considering later further amending this Measure to make the date 21 days after issue of notice rather than the date of receipt of notice, though it is, of course, impossible to do that now. Nevertheless, I put that idea into the hon. Gentleman's mind. With those comments, I commend the Amendments.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Speaker

Amendment No. 7 is a paving Amendment for Amendment No. 15. I think that with Amendment No. 7 we might debate Amendment No. 15 and the two Amendments to it standing in the name of the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. Hendry)—in line 2, leave out "within twenty-one days", and in line 6, leave out from "November" to "if" in line 7, and insert "in that year".

Dr. Dickson Mabon

I beg to move Amendment No. 7, in page 5, line 22, after "shall" to insert: (subject to subsection (6A) of this section)". Amendment No. 15 is equivalent to Amendment No. 1, which we discussed earlier and which related to payment by instalments in England and Wales. My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary undertook to look at the possibility of simplifying the procedure relating to notices and statements and, as a result, tabled that earlier Amendment, on which I am glad to learn no adverse comment was made. I shall, therefore, not burden the Committee with too much talk except to say that we welcome a similar adaptation, and this Amendment is so prepared.

I am happy to tell the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. Hendry) that I strongly advise the Committee to accept both of his Amendments. They are really a commendable improvement on the Government's original Amendment. The draftsmen who assist us in these matters are much indebted to the hon. Gentleman for seeing more clearly than they just what the Government sought to achieve. I hope that, in that happy frame of mind, the House can quickly come to agreement on the Amendment.

Mr. Speaker

Mr. Forbes Hendry—triumphantly.

Mr. Hendry

I simply confine myself to thanking the Under-Secretary for his recommendations of the House. I am very glad that I have been able at least to shorten his Bill.

Mr. Gordon Campbell (Moray and Nairn)

I am glad to note the Government's attitude to my hon. Friend's Amendments, and rather surprised, because, while I hoped that they would accept them, I was not sure that they would be able to accept the second one, and had intended to recommend his advice on this. I now congratulate my hon. Friend on a very good bit of drafting.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In page 5, line 25, leave out from "November" to second "the" in line 26 and insert: in the year in which the notice is given". In line 34, leave out from "November" to end of line 35 and insert: in the year in which the notice is given".—

[Dr. Dickson Mabon.]

5 (6A) Where a notice under subsection (1) of this section is given in respect of an hereditament within twenty-one days after the service of a demand note for any rates in respect of that hereditament for the first year to which the notice relates, nothing insubsection (2) of this section shall require the rating authority to send to the person who gave the notice an instalments statement relating to the period of twelve months commencing with 1st November next following, or (as the case may be) coinciding with or last preceding, the date of the notice, if that demand note included the information which (apart from this subsection) would have been required to be given in an instalments statement relating to that period of twelve months in consequence of the notice; and in that case the demand note shall be deemed for the purpose of the following provisions of this subsection to be an instalments statement.—[Dr. Dickson Mabon.]
10

Question proposed, That those words be there inserted in the Bill.

Amendments to the proposed words made: In line 2, leave out "within twenty-one days".

Dr. Dickson Mabon

I beg to move Amendment No. 12, in page 6, line 34, to leave out from "accordingly" to the end of line 39.

Mr. Speaker

I understand that it will be for the convenience of the House to take with this Amendment, Amendments Nos. 14 and 16.

Dr. Mabon

This group of Amendments is designed to simplify and improve a rating authority's powers to adjust an instalments statement to take account of any change or likely change in the amount of rates due. For example, where an authority receives in May an application for a rate rebate from an old-age pensioner, the instalments could be adjusted forthwith before the rebate is formally granted when the rate poundage is determined several months later. The previous provisions were at the end of subsections (5) and (6) and were not very comprehensive. They are deleted by these Amendments.

Mr. Hendry

I have had the advantage of discussing these Amendments with the Under-Secretary. I understood him to have some misgivings about the obscurity of the verbiage, but I believe that these Amendments improve and clarify the Bill. I therefore commend them to the House.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 6, line 45, leave out from "same" to end of line 3 on page 7.—[Dr. Dickson Mabon.]

Amendment proposed: In page 7, line 3, at end insert:

In line 6, leave out from "November" to "if" in line 7 and insert "in that year".—[Mr. Hendry.]

Proposed words, as amended, there inserted in the Bill.

Further Amendment made: In page 7, line 3, at end insert: (6B) Where, after sending an instalments statement, the rating authority are satisfied that there has been, or may be, any change in the amount the occupier is, or will be, liable to pay by way of rates in respect of the hereditament in question for the balance of the period of twelve months to which the instalments statement relates, the rating authority may by a further statement in writing make such adjustments as they think necessary in the amounts of the remainder of the instalments to which the instalments statement relates.—[Dr. Dickson Mabon.]

Dr. Dickson Mabon

I beg to move Amendment No. 17, in page 7, line 26, to leave out "section" and to insert "subsection".

This is purely a drafting Amendment. In fact notices given by ratepayers or a rating authority to discontinue an instalments arrangement will be given under this subsection (8) in particular, and the Amendment is designed to correct the drafting of this provision.

Amendment agreed to.

Dr. Dickson Mabon

I beg to move Amendment No. 18, in page 7, line 31 to leave out subsection (9).

This is consequential on the new Clause on selective discounts. This subsection which provides that ratepayers paying by instalments under the rating Bill are not to receive discount under existing powers must be omitted if the new Clause proposed by the Government is accepted. Under the new Clause householders paying rates by instalments in Scotland are not to be excluded from receiving discount provided that they pay their full rates by the date determined by their local authority.

For clarification I should say that because of the time table of the local authority financial year in Scotland local authorities do not get their rates in before 1st November at the earliest. They might therefore be prepared to allow discount for payments round about that date. It would obviously be unjust to allow discount to householders who paid their rates by lump sum before this date but not to those who might have paid instalments on account of rates over the previous months and met the balance of the total amount due before the specified date. This might, however, be the effect of subsection (9) and therefore it should be deleted.

Amendment agreed to.

    cc694-8
  1. Clause 3.—(RIGHT TO REBATE IN RESPECT OF RATES ON DWELLING.) 1,781 words
    2. cc698-707
  2. Clause 4.—(RECKONABLE RATES.) 3,523 words
    3. cc707-10
  3. Clause 5.—(RECKONABLE INCOME AND APPROPRIATE LIMITS THEREOF.) 1,228 words
    4. cc710-1
  4. Clause 6.—(AFFORDING OF REBATES.) 408 words
    5. cc711-2
  5. Clause 8.—(TREATMENT OF, AND OF GRANTS TOWARDS, REBATES FOR OTHER PURPOSES.) 455 words
    6. cc712-45
  6. Clause 9.—(INTERPRETATION.) 12,827 words