HC Deb 20 December 1966 vol 738 cc1361-72

Lords Amendment: In page 19, line 32, leave out from "shall" to end of line 38 and insert: subject to the next following subsection, be liable to be rated under section 24 above in respect of the dwelling-house as if he were in occupation of the dwelling-house; and no reduction shall be made under section 7 above in respect of rates payable by virtue of this subsection. () A rating authority may. if in all the circumstances it seems to them fair and reasonable so to do, reduce the amount of rates payable in respect of any dwelling-house for any period by virtue of subsection (2) above to the amount payable by virtue of section 24(2) above.

Dr. Dickson Mabon

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

I suggest that it would be convenient to the House if Lords Amendment No. 9 were discussed at the same time.

Dr. Mabon

That is convenient because the House will recollect that when we discussed the Clause on Report there was some criticism about the provision imposing a new statutory penalty. I protested at the time because, as I asked an honorary treasurer at a meeting of local authority associations which I attended, how could this be enforced if there was no penalty?

I asked the House then to answer that question, but nobody came up with the answer, apart from one suggestion from the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Wylie)—a suggestion on which I acted—in respect of valuation notices. However, having had time to consider the matter, and other suggestions having been made to us, the Amendment is the result. It means that there should not be a penalty but that there should be a type of sanction. This sanction should take the form of liability for 100 per cent. instead of 75 per cent. rates.

No question of prosecution for non-notification would arise; when the rating authority found its man, it would have power to charge the full rates, with the same powers of recovery as for ordinary rates. The effective amount of this penalty might be either less or more than the £20 maximum previously specified in the Clause, but for a house with a rate bill of £40, empty for a year in all, it would amount to £7 10s., which is, perhaps, about the average penalty the courts would impose.

The second part of the Amendment is designed to ensure that liability for 100 per cent. rating can be removed when it is reasonable to do so. The rating authority will have power to make the reduction when it seems fair and reasonable to do so. In addition, a rating authority retains at all times its discretion under Clause 24 not to levy the empty property rate at all.

There will, therefore, be several alternatives available, according to the nature of the circumstances. The rating authority could insist on maintaining 100 per cent. rates where there had been a wilful attempt to conceal that a house was empty; it could reduce the rates to 75 per cent. as soon as the owner had explained why he had failed to notify, or at some time afterwards, when the owner had, as it were expiated his failure to notify; or it could remit rates entirely if the owner convinced the authority that it was genuinely impossible for him to find a tenant.

The Amendment arrives at a happier solution than was contained in the Bill as it stood. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Hon. Gentlemen opposite should congratulate the Government for being willing, as always to have second thoughts on any matter; something which our Conservative predecessors never had.

Amendment No. 9 provides that empty houses will not need to be notified if they are in any case exempt from the rate leviable on empty properties. Clause 25 lists these exemptions, which include properties which the owner is prohibited from occupying by law—for example, under a clearance order—property for whose purchase a central Government or local Government Department is treating, property which is listed as of architectural or historic interest or is subject to a preservation order under the Ancient Monuments Acts, and manses and other clergymen's residences.

12 m.

Mr. G. Campbell

We noticed that the Government moved this Amendment in another place very soon after the Bill's arrival there, and we welcome this change of mind, as the hon. Gentleman described it. The Amendment removes an objectionable part of the new Clause, which appeared in this House just before the Report stage. That objectionable part would have established a new offence, with a penalty of up to £20, which many law-abiding citizens in Scotland would have found they had committed because they had no knowledge of the new scheme requiring them to register.

Although we divided on the matter on Report on 9th November, we congratulate the Government none the less having second thoughts in another place. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) is not here—[HON. MEMBERS: "Where is he?"]—because he often denigrates—[Interruption.]—If the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State has something to say, perhaps he will intervene in the normal way. I was trying to point out that the hon. Member for Fife, West does at times pour scorn on the usefulness of another place, but in this case that place has enabled the Government to reconsider the matter and change their mind.

We consider the 100 per cent. rating, which is the alternative, a great improvement. When we were pushing our case on Report we were considering a situation in which the individuals who might be committing this crime would not be interested in their rates being reduced—that was not the point; they were happy to go on paying 100 per cent. rates—but simply that they would be committing a crime because they had not carried out registration. We therefore congratulate the Government on their second thoughts, and ourselves for having pressed the Government, because this was something that came to us at very short notice. It is to everyone's benefit that there should not be an offence of the kind the Government had proposed.

Mr. William Baxter (West Stirlingshire)

I cannot resist the temptation to say that I endorse the action of the Government in another place in deleting the penalty that was in the Bill when it left this House. I am not sure whether it was the Opposition that I was following or the Opposition that were following me, but whatever it was it had a very good effect. I agree that it shows the usefulness of another place. There is no doubt that because of deliberations in another place this Bill has come back a much better Measure than when it left this place.

Mr. James Davidson (Aberdeenshire, West)

I add my congratulations to the Government on the alteration of this Clause. In the original debate I was accused of ambiguity in my attitude. I hope that the Under-Secretary will now say that I was not ambiguous, because he himself has changed his mind.

Mr. N. R. Wylie (Edinburgh, Pentlands)

I do not feel at all like congratulating the Government on this Amendment. It was utterly disgraceful of them to come here on Report with the kind of provisions that have now been reversed. The Government were creating a criminal offence—and the hon. Gentleman cannot escape the implication—of failure to give notice when property became unoccupied, a thing to which we took the strongest possible exception.

I hesitate to congratulate them on this, but we are very grateful that they have gone back on that proposal. It would have been quite disgraceful if a provision of that nature had ever gone on the Statute Book. We felt very strongly about that and are glad that at least at this late stage the Government have realised how disgraceful was their original proposal.

Dr. Dickson Mabon

I acknowledge some of the comments. Of course, the Government were impressed by the debate. The Government listen to debates, and there was a number of occasions when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State listened to suggestions made by the hon. Member for Moray and Nairn (Mr. G. Campbell). If the Government's only reward is to be blamed for having thought wrongly in the first instance, that will not encourage Ministers of the hon. Gentleman's own Government—if there ever is one again—or this Government to do that. I counsel the hon. Gentleman to realise that when the Government make an effort to amend something immediately after it leaves this place, because it considers criticisms to be valid, it should be congratulated. Such is the essence of Parliamentary democracy.

I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. James Davidson) that I do not resile from what I said in Committee, but the Amendment meets his original contention that we should have 100 per cent. of these people all the time. He should therefore also welcome the Clause.

Question put and agreed to.

Subsequent Lords Amendment agreed to.

New Clause A.—(PLACING OF STAFF ETC. OF LOCAL AUTHORITY AT DISPOSAL OF SECRETARY OF STATE OR OF ANOTHER LOCAL AUTHORITY.)

Lords Amendment: In page 25, line 5, at end insert new Clause A:— A.—(1) A local authority may enter into an agreement with the Secretary of State or another local authority for the placing at his or their disposal, for the purposes of any function of a party to the agreement under any enactment (including an enactment in any local Act) or any instrument whether passed or made before or after the passing of this Act, on such terms as may be provided by the agreement, of the services of persons employed by the local authority and of any premises, equipment, and other facilities under their control. (2) For the avoidance of doubt it is hereby declared that for superannuation purposes, in the absence of agreement to the contrary, service rendered by a person whose services are placed by a local authority at the disposal of the Secretary of State or another local authority in pursuance of this section is service rendered to the first-mentioned local authority. (3) In this section "local authority" has the meaning assigned to it by section 113(1) of the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1947, and "premises" includes land and buildings.

Mr. Ross

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This is a new Clause that was added when we saw the possibility of legalising an anomalous position that was drawn to our attention. It legalises the position of local authorities that lend staff to other local authorities or the Secretary of State for the performance of statutory functions It is already fairly common for local authorities to lend staff to each other at times of crisis—it may well have happened in the past few days. Another example is that an assessor might lend his staff to another assessor who is not so far on in completing the revaluation of his area.

There is no compulsion under the Clause for a local authority to lend its staff. It retains complete freedom to do so, and on the terms on which it will do so, for example, in regard to reimbursement and the length of time that staff are to be seconded. The same considerations would apply to premises and equipment.

Subsection (2) is a technical provision to ensure that continuity of employment for superannuation purposes is preserved.

The Clause applies to county councils, town councils, district councils and all types of joint committees.

I apologise to the House because this provision was introduced in another place, but this once again shows the advantage of having a revising additional Chamber.

There was a similar Clause to this, in respect of road construction units only, in the English Bill. We thought it wise to have this wider Clause in this Bill.

Mr. Speaker

I understand that with this Amendment we are taking Amendment No. 29 which I fancy is consequential.

Mr. Edward M. Taylor

Can the right hon. Gentleman indicate the circumstances under which he thinks a local authority might lend its staff to the Secretary of State? He dealt with transfers between local authorities, but I do not think that he gave examples of circumstances in which he thought that a local authority might lend staff to the Secretary of State.

Mr. Ross

I am sure that if the hon. Member exercises his very fertile imagination he must know that there are very valuable people in local authorities whom we might be anxious to have for a period for advice on, or consideration of, particular problems. It may well be that, in relation to some of the items under this Bill, we might have asked for secondment, but I do not think that we did.

It is easy to visualise circumstances under which some person from a local authority might be of value for a period of secondment to the Secretary of State. I would draw the hon. Member's attention to the fact that we shall be considering as a House the problems of Kilbrandon, for instance, in respect of the welfare services. It may well be that, for a period, we might require secondment of someone on that subject. There have been innumerable cases in which this might be possible and we think it wise to cover such circumstances.

Question put and agreed to.

Subsequent Lords Amendment agreed to.

New Clause B.—(INTERPRETATION OF "PUBLIC UTILITY UNDERTAKING" IN SECTION 379(1) OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT (SCOTLAND) ACT 1947.)

Lords Amendment: In page 26, line 21, at end, insert new Clause B: B. For the avoidance of doubt it is hereby declared that the definition of public utility undertaking in section 379(1) of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1947 does not include an aerodrome undertaking or any business ancillary thereto.

Dr. Mabon

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This is a useful proposal which helps local authorities, particularly those in the Highlands and Islands, to provide landing strips and airfields, as they are doing to an increasing extent in order to develop communications. It was drawn to our attention that, under Section 211 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1947, local authorities are restricted in the extent to which they can cover the cost of public utility undertakings out of the rates. We think it wise, therefore, to make this Amendment.

Question put and agreed to.

New Clause C.—(PAYMENTS BY LOCAL AUTHORITIES TO OFFSET EFFECT OF SELECTIVE EMPLOYMENT TAX.)

Lords Amendment: In page 26, line 21, at end, insert new Clause C: C. A local authority within the meaning of the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1947 may make to any person such payments as the authority consider appropriate for the purpose of offsetting, either wholly or in part, payments by way of the selective employment tax made by that person in respect of persons employed for the purposes of any contract entered into by the authority before 4th May, 1966.

Dr. Mabon

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

Following the introduction of the Selective Employment Tax, there was some doubt about the powers of local authorities to revise fixed price contracts entered into before 4th May. Contracts entered into since S.E.T. was announced will, of course, have taken account of the effect of the tax.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 45.—(AMENDMENTS AND REPEALS.)

Lords Amendment: In page 30, line 3, leave out the Road Traffic Act 1934".

Dr. Mabon

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

I suggest that with this Mr. Speaker, we consider Lords Amendment No. 28, in Schedule 6, page 45, leave out lines 4 and 5.

Section 41(8) of the Road Traffic Act, 1934, was repealed because Clause 29 of this Bill gives county councils power to light roads for which they are responsible. On further examination, it appeared that there could be a situation where a county council might wish to light a road for which it was not the highway authority and for which the power under Section 41(8) would be necessary. It is, therefore, considered desirable to retain the power.

Question put and agreed to.

Subsequent Lords Amendment agreed to.

Schedule 1.—(RATE SUPPORT GRANTS.)

Lords Amendment: In page 31, line 18, at end, insert , or in the case of a year of revaluation, in proportion to their said products, whichever is the higher, estimated in relation to that year under section 12 of this Act.

Mr. Ross

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This Amendment puts right an oversight in respect of the distribution of grant. It is designed to ensure that, within a county, grant is distributed in a revaluation year on the up-to-date valuation and not on the valuation for the previous year, Which may by then be badly out of date. Clause 12(2) ensures that the same principle is followed with regard to other financial apportionments within a county, but it was overlooked that this had not been achieved in the case of the distribution of the Rate Support Grant, which would have been a serious matter.

Question put and agreed to.

Schedule 3.—(RATING OF UNOCCUPIED PROPERTY.)

Lords Amendment: In page 39, line 12, leave out and ends at or after".

Dr. Mabon

I beg to move, That this House cloth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

I suggest that it would be convenient to discuss at the same time Lords Amendment No. 18, in page 39, line 16, leave out from beginning to "the" in line 17, and insert: (a) if within 28 days of the receipt by him of a notice under section 9(4) of the Valuation and Rating (Scotland) Act 1956 or of a completion notice in respect of the lands and heritages concerned the owner so requests the assessor, the assessor shall certify to him and to the rating authority the gross annual value and Lords Amendment No. 19, in page 39, line 21, at end, insert: the owner and the rating authority shall be entitled to appeal or complain with respect to the value so certified as in manner provided by or under the Valuation Acts, (b) the assessor shall, when he issues a certificate wider head (a) above, send to the owner of the lands and heritages a notice of his right of appeal by virtue of the said head (a), and". Lords Amendment No. 20, in page 39, line 23, after "certified", insert or determined as the result of an appeal or complaint and Lords Amendment No. 21, in page 39, line 42, leave out "hereafter".

These Amendments protect the owner of empty property which is empty at the time revaluation takes place or was empty in the preceding year. Under paragraph 3 of the Schedule, a rating authority can serve a notice on the owner of a building that it regards it as completed, even though it may not have been finished off to the liking of a future tenant, and proposes to rate it in retrospect as soon as a rateable value is attached to it.

Paragraph 1(2) of the Schedule then provides that, if part of the period of vacancy fell in a previous valuation quinquennium, the assessor shall certify what its value would have been in the earlier quinquennium as well as its new value. The Amendments give a right of appeal against the certificate for the earlier quinquennium and makes sure that the owners know of this right. He has a right of appeal against the value for the new quinquennium under existing law.

Question put and agreed to.

Subsequent Lords Amendments agreed to

Lords Amendment: In page 39, line 46, at end insert: ; and the authority shall along with the completion notice send to the owner a notice of his right of appeal by virtue of subparagraph (4) below".

12.15 a.m.

Mr. Ross

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This Amendment should be helpful to owners of empty new property by ensuring that when a completion notice is served on them by the rating authority—that is a notice saying that the building is deemed to be ready for occupation from a certain date—a statement of the rights of appeal to the sheriff is included with the notice. I think this is eminently desirable.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords Amendment No. 23: In page 41, line 27, leave out "or dwelling-house".

Dr. Mabon

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This Amendment and Amendments Nos. 24 and 25 are drafting Amendments because, as a result of changes made earlier, there is no longer any reference to dwelling-house in Schedule 3 of the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Subsequent Lords Amendments agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In page 41, line 34, at end, insert: . The provisions of this Schedule relating to newly erected buildings shall apply to buildings which are being improved by the owner and are thereby rendered temporarily unsuitable for occupation, and references to erection of a building shall be construed as references to improvements; and those provisions shall so apply with any other necessary modifications. In this paragraph 'improvements' includes alterations other than such alterations as are described in paragraph 5 above, and 'improved' shall be construed accordingly.

Dr. Mabon

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.

This Amendment provides that buildings undergoing improvement should be exempted from the empty property rate, but that the rating authority would be allowed to serve a completion notice.

Buildings undergoing improvement, which includes alterations, will by virtue of this Amendment be exempted from empty property rating in the same way as new buildings until the rating authority serves a completion notice stating that the building is deemed to be ready for occupation as from a given date. This will allow necessary improvements to be carried out without the owner falling liable to rates, and at the same time ensure that an unscrupulous owner cannot avoid rates by protracting improvement work indefinitely. I think this is an eminently sensible conclusion, and I commend it to the House.

Mr. G. Campbell

The hon. Gentleman will not be surprised to hear that we also welcome this Amendment so far as it goes, because this is another point on which we divided the House on Report. We are glad to find that the Government have made a move in another place. We also argued this at considerable length in Committee.

We feel that if a house is unoccupied because of improvements being carried out, then the owner should not be penalised for this. We are glad that the Government have come round to this view before the Bill has completed its stages.

Question put and agreed to.

Remaining Lords Amendments agreed to.

Mr. Speaker

The Chair indicated that privilege was involved in a number of Amendments, the numbers of which were given to the House. As the House has been willing to waive its privilege in respect of these Amendments, I will see that appropriate entries are made in the Journal.