EMPLOYMENT (COLOURED SCHOOL LEAVERS)

HC Deb 08 December 1966 vol 737 cc1715-26

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. McBride.]

10.14 p.m.

Mr. David Winnick (Croydon, South)

So far, the debate on immigration in—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. Hon. Members may have an adjournment debate themselves some day. I hope that they will depart from the Chamber quietly.

Mr. Winnick

So far, the debate on immigration in Britain has been largely about the question of entry and how many coloured Commonwealth citizens should be allowed into Britain in any given year. The subject has given rise to heat and controversy both inside and outside this House.

The problem with which I want briefly to deal tonight is of a different type. It is the question of coloured school leavers. We already have in this country a number of coloured youngsters who were born in Britain of immigrant stock. In other cases, we have youngsters who came over to Britain at an early age and have spent a good number of their school years in our schools. Therefore, a new problem has arisen. It was to a certain extent anticipated by those of us who have been concerned with immigration problems for the last few years.

This is not a problem which should in any way be exaggerated. It is a serious problem, but it has not so far got out of control. In fairness, I should make the point that coloured youngsters who leave our schools and go into unskilled or semiskilled work have little problem in finding employment. There may be problems in certain areas which have a higher than average level of unemployment, but there is no particular problem of colour in the sort of unskilled or semi-skilled work which, in many cases, is done by coloured adults and in which there has been little difficulty in finding jobs.

Where the problem has begun to arise is where coloured youngsters with qualifications, including G.C.E. "O" level and, in some cases, "A" level passes, want to go into non-manual and professional work. It has to be recognised that a number of employers in that kind of occupation operate a sort of colour bar.

A few months ago, the Campaign against Racial Discrimination conducted a number of tests in various parts of the country. In one test, which was spotlighted in the Observer of 25th September this year, a coloured youngster aged 18 with G.C.E. passes and who was qualified for university entrance applied for a number of professional non-manual jobs which had been advertised but in every case was turned down. It was said, for example, by employers that they were very sorry but the vacancy had already been filled, or that although he had certain qualifications he did not have all the qualifications that the employer required.

Immediately after that youngster had been rejected, some white people, who were willing to be involved in the test by the Campaign against Racial Discrimination and who had the same qualifications and no more, went to the same employers and in each case they had no difficulty in securing jobs. There is no doubt, therefore, that the Campaign against Racial Discrimination has spotlighted this problem.

Again, it was reported in the Sunday Telegraph of 11th September this year that two West Indian girls who had been born in this country applied for a number of jobs in which they would come into contact directly with customers. In all cases they were rejected. Bur white girls who participated in the test carried out by the Campaign for Racial Discrimination and who subsequently made similar applications found no difficulty in being offered employment.

Some people may say that the Campaign against Racial Discrimination might be over-sensitive on this problem or that it is an organisation which has been set up deliberately to spotlight racial discrimination so that we should be a little cautious about its tests and what it puts out in leaflets. Last week, however, it was reported in the Press that in evidence to the Hunt Committee, which has been set up by my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science to examine the question of the youth service and immigrants, the Inner London Education Authority made this reference: Some sectors of industry and commerce are virtually closed to some immigrants. Examples are banks, insurance companies, some retail sales work, some radio/T.V. servicing, etc. … Coloured girls seeking office employment, for instance, may well have to attend several interviews with different firms before being accepted and some employers tend to demand a higher standard from coloured boys and gills than they do from local white children. This often results in boys and girls hastily finding work for themselves in situations which make less demands on their abilities. That comes from the Inner London Education Authority.

There is no doubt, without in any way wishing to exaggerate the problem, that where coloured youngsters want to find work in the professions or the non-manual grades, or where they come in contact with customers or clients, there is, unfortunately, a colour bar operating.

I believe that it is a matter which gives all of us in the House a good deal of worry. One of the reasons why I raise this matter tonight, and what worries me, is that if we do not take action on this problem, after a while this form of colour bar will become normal and acceptable. No one will be particularly surprised about it and we shall find ourselves with a very serious problem.

I know that some employers say, "I have no colour bar, but my customers would object." When I was speaking to my local Chamber of Commerce in Croydon during the Summer Recess, I said that I recognised that some employers tended to raise that argument, but, even if it is true, in my view that would be no justification for operating a colour bar.

Sir Harmar Nicholls (Peterborough)

In the examples which he gives, is the hon. Gentleman saying that the business men in Croydon to whom he has spoken admitted that, on colour grounds, they turn people down and have produced the argument about their customers' likes or dislikes as the reason for not having engaged coloured people?

Mr. Winnick

Unfortunately, the hon. Gentleman has misunderstood me. I was referring to a speech I made at a luncheon to which I was invited by the Chamber of Commerce in Croydon. But this is a national problem rather than a local one. In Croydon, a number of firms have been willing to employ coloured labour. It becomes a problem where there is a large number of coloured immigrants—more so than there are in Croydon.

If employers use that argument, the reply should be that they ought to have enough moral courage to refuse to accept such an argument. It is also important to accept that in many cases customers could not care less who serves them—a white or a coloured person.

Another difficulty is that, in some cases, it is known to the local youth employment office that a number of firms are willing to take on coloured labour. The result is that those firms get a very large number of coloured people. The firms which operate a colour bar do not take on coloured labour, and those who are willing to do so are faced with certain internal difficulties. There are also cases where private employment agencies refuse to register coloured people. When they go along, they say, "No. We are sorry. There is nothing we can do about you." That, again, is a deplorable state of affairs.

To an extent, we have become used to a colour discrimination. It does not surprise or shock us as much as it should. Can one imagine the feelings of a boy or girl of 16 or 17 who has spent many years in this country or who may even be first generation English-born, to discover on going for a job that there is a colour bar? They find it difficult to believe. After a while, it comes home to them that they are being rejected not because of any lack of qualification, but simply because of the colour of their skin. There are enough problems for us all in this life without people being penalised or discriminated against because of the colour of their skin. One can well understand the feelings of youngsters who find a colour bar operating.

Perhaps I might make reference here to that excellent television programme, "This Week". About 18 months ago, it devoted the whole of one programme to coloured youngsters having great difficulty in finding jobs in the fields of activity which I have mentioned.

At Question Time, I have suggested to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the Government should give the lead on discrimination in employment by inserting a Clause into all Government contracts that would prevent any form of discrimination on any grounds. I have put three Questions to my right hon. Friend, and on each occasion I have been told that consultations are taking place with industry and the trade union movement. I am not suggesting that if the Government inserted such a clause in all Government contracts the problem to which I am referring would be solved overnight, but I believe that the Government have a clear responsibility to give a lead, and it is very important that these negotiations about this clause in Government contracts should not carry on indefinitely. I hope that within the next few weeks there will be a clear statement that the Government are willing to insert such a clause in their contracts, even if certain people in industry or in the trade union movement object.

I hope that youth employment offices will go out of their way to make sure that where employers state that no coloureds are required, such firms will be told clearly that the Government youth employment office is not willing to act indirectly as an agency for colour discrimination.

It has sometimes been said that on certain cards in these, youth employment offices there is some kind of marking denoting that employers are not willing to take on coloured people. It is very important that employers should be told quite clearly that youth employment offices, like employment exchanges, are not willing to act indirectly as agencies for colour and racial discrimination.

I believe that this is not a problem which we should allow ourselves to exaggerate, but at the same time I emphasise that we must not go to the other extreme and pretend that there is no problem. There is sometimes a tendency to dismiss talk of colour discrimination, and say that it does not exist, but it does, and it is therefore very important for the Government to make it quite clear that strong action will be taken to deal with this problem.

I know that some of my hon. Friends consider that there should be a change in the law itself. I know that on the Adjournment I am not allowed to delve into this argument, but I believe that my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport, South (Mr. Orbach) will deal with this matter in a Private Member's Bill in a few days' time.

I am pleased to have had the opportunity to raise this matter. It is one which needs to be spotlighted, and I hope that by dealing with it we shall not allow the problem to drift, and that within a short period coloured youngsters will not find jobs barred to them because of the colour of their skin.

10.27 p.m.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mrs. Shirley Williams)

I begin by thanking my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Winnick) for raising this very important subject on the Adjournment tonight. It is perhaps not irrelevant to mention that it is particularly appropriate that this follows a debate which has been discussing a principle which is very much at stake in this matter as well.

Perhaps I might tell the House the present situation in so far as we know the facts. I need to make that qualification because, as I am sure my hon. Friends know, it is not the case in this country that we specify in any way that can be described in the statistics the race or national origin of these young people leaving school and applying for jobs. My hon. Friend will therefore understand if I am not able to give him more than a broad impression this evening, because he will appreciate that it is not possible to give him separate statistics since these are not kept.

The overall position, as my hon. Friend knows, is that only 1.6 per cent. of all school-leavers who left school this summer were still unplaced in October 1966, the last month for which we have figures. The Ministry has asked all youth employment offices with more than ten children of immigrant parents on their books—and that includes not only children of parents who are immigrants from what is usually described as the New Commonwealth, but European immigrants as well—to give reports on the placing of these children. This was followed up only yesterday by a meeting of 30 youth employment officers who have a number of immigrant children to place, and regional officers, to get more advice from headquarters on this problem.

The overall impression that we have is that the problem of unemployment among immigrant children is at present slight. This means that immigrant children have been placed, and in some regions, like the North-West and Wales, no immigrant boy or girl among the school-leavers is known, at the moment at least, not to be placed. I would agree with my hon. Friend that it is not always the case that those boys and girls have been placed in jobs exactly equivalent to their abilities. This is a real problem, and one that he has very usefully highlighted.

As far as we know, the main problem is not in manufacturing, nor is even with boys, particularly of greater attainment who have qualified for apprenticeships. For example, in the North-West all the immigrant boys seeking apprenticeships who left school this summer have been placed. and in general it is the case, according to our reports, that the number of boys going forward for apprenticeships with qualifications have been placed similarly to the position of local boys.

But there are certain difficulties, and I will mention them. One difficulty arises in retail distribution. A number of youth employment officers have reported that it has not been easy to place boys—and, more particularly, girls—in retail distribution. Another instance, and one that has been given by my hon. Friend, is in certain elements of office work, and perhaps most notably it is difficult to place some immigrant school-leavers in insurance companies and banks. I must make it clear that there are some exceptions to this position, but this is an overall general impression of the position—

Mr. Marcus Lipton (Brixton)

My hon. Friend says that banks are a problem, but she must know that no coloured girls are employed at the Big Five, not only at the counter but behind the counter, where customers cannot see them.

Mrs. Williams

It would not be proper for me to specify banks, but my impression is that there is at least one bank where that is not the case. I will not go into details, but I think I am fairly stating the impression that it is difficult to place immigrants in banks and in a number of insurance companies.

There are two other spheres in which the position is not easy. One is radio and television servicing and the other is motor repair. Here it is difficult to draw conclusions, as it is also very difficult to place local boys because there is a much greater demand for jobs than there are vacancies.

It is also the case that it is difficult to place immigrant girl apprentices in hairdressing. Some companies accept them, others seem to find it a good deal more difficult. It is often said that the objection comes from the customers, and our impression is that although there may be some objection by customers in hairdressing that is not the case in retail distribution. There is not, in that case, much evidence to bear out that argument. It is worth putting on the record that there are signs of an easing of the situation in retail distribution.

It is quite clear from our information that it takes longer, and is more difficult, for youth employment officers to place an immigrant boy or girl because of, in some cases, an inadequate understanding of the standards demanded in this country for jobs, but I do not think that Solomon himself could state the proportion in each respect. Of the young people who left school in Birmingham this summer, under half had had two years' or less experience of British schools, and just over one-third had had four years' experience or more.

This clearly raises difficulties of language, of environment and of incomplete understanding of the standards that are demanded for a number of jobs. We will all know—not this year or next year, but in about ten years' time, because we will then have boys and girls whose whole school experience has been in the British educational system—just how great a part prejudice plays in this. I would not suggest that there is not any prejudice, because it would not be frank to say that there was none. There is evidence of prejudice in some cases, but I also find it impossible to say that all cases, or even a majority of cases are necessarily due to prejudice. It is extremely difficult to give a precise indication.

To turn to another subject, closely related to this, how can we build up goodwill in the placing of immigrant children? I use the phrase "immigrant children" rather than children of immigrants deliberately, because this is an important distinction. We need goodwill between trade unions and employers. It is clear that employers can set a good example by taking on a young immigrant school-leaver and assisting him or her to find their way into a job, and to break through what is often an unsubstantiated and vague attitude in a particular locality.

I would like to put on record the great assistance that we have had from those involved in the liaison committees of the National Council for Commonwealth Immigrants and the National Council itself, and from a number of employers and trade unions, not necessarily associated with those committees, who have taken this attitude. It is an attitude that needs to go further and it is this type of leadership among employers and trade unions which is crucial to the solution of the problem. When I say employers I should make it clear that this is as true of public employers as of private employers.

In answer to my hon. Friend's question about Government action, I cannot give a reply on behalf of the Chancellor, but I can tell him a little more about the Ministry of Labour's attitude. He may know that recently a revised circular was sent by the Central Youth Employment Executive to all youth employment officers. I would like to read two passages, the first of which says: Discrimination against persons solely on the grounds of race, colour, creed or sex is contrary to the general policy of the Government and should not be practised or condoned by YEOs in selecting or putting forward young persons for submission to employment. It goes on: In submitting young people for employment the YEO should not normally raise the question of an individual's race, colour or creed with a prospective employer unless the young person concerned has specifically asked him to do so. However if the YEO considers that the placing prospects of a young person would be substantially improved by explaining the position to an employer, e.g., to one who has had no previous experience of immigrant workers, he may do so on those grounds alone. It then goes on to describe how this must be recorded and the information must be passed through the machinery that this has been done. In all cases where discrimination is considered to have been discovered by the youth employment officer he must send in a report to the higher levels of the Ministry.

Mr. Reginald Freeson (Willesden, East)

What is the position of those youth employment officers who, with the best intentions, know of some firm or factory which will not accept coloured youngsters, and who do not attempt, after a period, to place coloured youngsters? This is an implicit discrimination which they are condoning. I realise the difficulties, but would like to know what is being done, and what can be done.

Mrs. Williams

My hon. Friend may like to know of the decision in a recent case when it was clear that a firm would not employ coloured workers on the grounds of company policy. We brought into operation our refusal to assist that firm any further with employment services.

My hon. Friend is right in suggesting that this is something of a cross-roads. In the next two or three years we shall lay the foundations which will ensure that there will be equal opportunities for boys and girls, who will no longer be able to be described as immigrant children, but will have to be described as British children, who happen to have a skin of a different colour to the majority of British citizens. I recognise that there are greater difficulties in placing immigrant children in jobs equal to their ability. It is in terms of that work, and the work of the National Council for Commonwealth Immigrants, the work of my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Foley), who I am glad to see in his place tonight, and many others that we shall decide whether or not this country can prove that it is not on the basis of prejudice but only on the basis of a boy's or girl's ability that his or her future depends.

It is difficult at present to be clear how much, in the words of one of the youth employment officers, a boy is placed in a job that is equivalent to his attainment but is not equivalent to his ability because of extraneous problems and to resistance among employers and some trade unions.

A good deal of progress has been made, some of it only in the last few months, even weeks. There are employers who are now willing to accept immigrant school leavers but who were not so willing to do so only a few months ago. There are whole spheres of employment where young immigrant boys and girls are getting jobs, although a great deal more work remains to be done on this subject. Through debates such as this and by the interest shown by hon. Members in this problem will we decide, in the next few years, whether or not we can say that in Britain opportunities are equal, regardless of race, sex, national origin or creed.

Question put and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at eighteen minutes to Eleven o'clock.