RHODESIA (Hansard, 27 April 1966)

§ The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson)
With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement on Rhodesia.
As the Government have repeatedly made clear over the past five months, anyone in Rhodesia is free to approach the Governor or the British representatives in Salisbury with proposals as to the basis on which a solution of the problem can be reached. As the result of a recent report from the Governor, informal talks between officials have been arranged to examine whether such a basis exists.
Sir, the House will wish to know the sequence of events. I received a report from the Governor last week, at a time when, as it happened, my Private Secretary, Mr. Oliver Wright, had just left by air for Pretoria to assist H.M. Ambassador in his talks with the South African Government. He was instructed to leave the aircraft at Salisbury for discussions with the Governor before going on to Pretoria.
709 As a result of his report to me on his talks with the Governor, he was instructed to return to Salisbury on Friday last, 22nd April. The Governor then arranged a meeting between Mr. Wright, Mr. Hennings, Her Majesty's Government's representative in Salisbury, and Mr. Smith.
A further talk has been held leading to agreed arrangements for the informal talks which will now proceed. They are informal, directed only to see whether a basis for negotiation genuinely exists; and they are without commitment on either side. In view of the importance of these talks the House will not expect me to say anything more which could in any way make them more difficult. The House will understand why, in view of the highly delicate situation, I could not say anything in last Thursday's debate.
In the debate due to take place this afternoon at the suggestion of the Opposition, hon. and right hon. Members, naturally, will say exactly what they wish to on the Rhodesian question, past, present and future. I have, however, in the new circumstances, asked my own Front Bench colleagues to keep their own remarks to the absolute minimum necessary to reply to points raised and to avoid anything which might prejudice the prospects of a settlement acceptable to this House.

§ Mr. Heath
Is the Prime Minister aware that we warmly welcome the announcement that talks are to be opened of an informal character between representatives of Her Majesty's Government and representatives of Mr. Smith and his colleagues and that these talks are to be devoted, not to the limited question of handing over the de facto power, but of finding a solution to the problems of Rhodesia? This, I believe, is a matter which will be warmly welcomed by the country, and, I hope, all right hon. and hon. Members.
Is the right hon. Gentleman further aware that it has long been urged from this side of the House that there should be talks without prior commitment between the two sides and that, therefore, we not only warmly welcome these talks but wish them every success?
As the Prime Minister has urged that these matters should be dealt with in points raised in the debate to follow, I suggest to my right hon. and hon. Friends 710 that, in view of the delicate situation, we should not press the right hon. Gentleman on specific points now, but leave them to be raised in that debate.

§ The Prime Minister
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his opening remarks. It is a fact, of course, that all of us wish to see a solution to this problem and all the measures that have had to be taken and which have been a matter of great controversy in this House were directed to creating a situation in which we could find a solution. That was the purpose of the sanctions introduced by the Government.
Both the right hon. Gentleman and I have expressed the view, which he expressed in this House in November, that: We recognise that it is an illegal Government and that the Government of this country can have no dealings with it."—[OFFICIAL, REPORT, 12th November, 1965; Vol. 720, c. 539.] As recently as last February, the right hon. Gentleman made a very similar statement in an article in Punch.
I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not press me to say too much about what has been done and, more particularly, the manner in which it has been done, for we are more concerned about results in the future than about the way these discussions have been brought about. But I can say that what is being done, and the manner in which it is being done, reflect the position that the Government have taken up on the question of legality and upon which the right hon. Gentleman himself has made a number of important pronouncements in the past.
One draws the wrong conclusion if one thinks that it has simply been a question, in the past five months, of willingness to have talks. We have always been willing to have talks, but the House, I am sure, will agree that what have been decisive in this matter have been the oil sanction, introduced in December, and the action we took recently at Beira with the authority of the United Nations. It is these things which have created the situation in which the talks that all of us have wanted to see could now take place.

§ Mr. Shinwell
Is it not true that the Government have always said that the prerequisite to exchanges between Her Majesty's Government and Mr. Smith 711 should, in the first instance, be an approach to the Governor? Has Mr. Smith made such an approach at any time?

§ The Prime Minister
The House will have deduced from the words I used that the Governor has played a very leading part in this situation. Since I am more concerned with getting results for the future than with saying exactly how the approach by, to or with the Governor arose, I would prefer not to go into detail on this question, except to say that—because, as my right hon. Friend said, we have attached great importance to these matters—what has happened is in full accord with what everyone wanted to happen. As I have mentioned, the Governor played a leading part in promoting the meeting on Saturday which led to this situation.
I make it plain that these are not negotiations. Her Majesty's Government are not negotiating with the illegal régime. These are informal talks to see whether there is a basis on which proper negotiations could take place. Then, at that stage, one will have to raise all the big issues which were impediments, in some of my early statements and in the early statements of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, to the idea of direct negotiations.

§ Mr. Grimond
Is the Prime Minister aware that everyone will welcome the prospect that fruitful talks may result from these preliminary negotiations? Can he confirm three things: first, that the Commonwealth are in agreement with this course; secondly, that the principles agreed upon by all parties in the House remain in force and must be the basis of any talks; and, thirdly, that the most important point at issue is the safeguarding of our responsibilities towards the black Africans, and that these will figure largely in any discussions which take place?

§ The Prime Minister
First, my right hon. Friend has taken steps this morning to inform all those concerned in the Commonwealth with the latest developments. It would not have been possible, without endangering what was going on, to have too much prior disclosure. Indeed, it was not until this morning that I had the final confirmation that it would be possible to make a statement of this kind.
712 Secondly, with regard to the principles that will be embodied in a final settlement, I said in the House on Thursday that, while there was quite a lot which we were prepared to forget and forgive, none of us in the House was prepared to accept a settlement which condoned an illegal act, or which failed to satisfy the principles which were laid down by my predecessor when he was Prime Minister and by the present Government and which were, as I said on Thursday, accepted by Mr. Smith in the negotiations last summer.
Those principles include the third point made by the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), and I am sure that the House would only regard as an acceptable settlement one which gives effect to those principles.

§ Mr. Driberg
Can my right hon. Friend say whether there has been any reaction yet from the Commonwealth countries which were informed this morning of these talks and whether at any point during the talks representatives of the majority of the Rhodesian people will be invited to come in?

§ The Prime Minister
As far as I know, there has been no reaction from any Commonwealth country—there has hardly been time for that—although I think that the Commonwealth countries, particularly those which were represented at Lagos, will now recognise, as I said at Lagos, that the economic sanctions work. There was a lot of doubt expressed about that in Lagos at the time and in the past few days in this country. There will be that recognition.
What I have announced today are only preliminary and very informal talks to see whether a basis exists for negotiations. I would not want to prejudice these talks by saying how the negotiations will be conducted, or what kind of machinery might have to be established, perhaps on a bilateral basis between Her Majesty's Government and representatives of Rhodesia, possibly in the very widest sense, or whether other machinery such as some of the things discussed before the illegal declaration last year might have to be incorporated. These are matters which we should discuss in the informal talks which will be conducted, as far as this can be ensured—I think that it can—away from the glare of publicity and from pressures of all kinds.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. We will debate Rhodesia in a few moments. I hope that we can move on.

§ Mr. Michael Foot
On a point of order. In a matter of this importance, is it not customary to have more than three or four questions, which is all we have had? This is a matter of very great importance. [HON. MEMBERS:" It is not not a point of order."] The question of whether you, Mr. Speaker, should continue the questions is perfectly a point of order, whether you accept my suggestion or not. I submit to you, Sir, that on a matter of this importance one or two more questions should be put.

§ Mr. Speaker
It is the duty of the Chair to sense the feeling of the House. I took notice of what the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition said and the fact that the hon. Gentleman was the only Member on his feet wishing to pursue this matter, and the simple fact that, as I understand from the usual channels, we are to debate the whole question of Rhodesia for the rest of the day. I hope that we can now proceed.

§ Mr. Michael Foot
I understand that it is your business, Mr. Speaker, and not mine or anybody else's, to sense the opinion of the House, but I should have thought that, in taking these matters into account, you would exercise your judgment on the importance of the matter. If it is suggested that the number of Members who rise to their feet to put supplementary questions determines the matter, then it might be that Members would have to take their own recourse in future in order to ensure that this happens.
I would seriously suggest that, in the light of the time which has been provided on statements of this importance in the past, you, Mr. Speaker, have curtailed the 714 number of questions which might have been put on this matter.

§ Mr. Speaker
With all respect to the hon. Gentleman, I fear that he is attempting to do what he said he was not attempting to do, and that is to act as Speaker of the House of Commons. If he thinks that the Chair has behaved in any way unreasonably, then he has his right—and I would fight for his right—to exercise that criticism in the way laid down. I have taken notice of what he has said, but I do not think that his comments were quite fair to the Chair.