HC Deb 28 October 1965 vol 718 cc323-5
2. Mr. Freeson

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what definition his Department gives to the term, Immigrant Child, used in his Circular 7/65 on the Education of Immigrants.

The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Denis Howell)

The term "immigrant child" in Circular 7/65 was intended to cover children who, because of differences in their cultural and social background and, sometimes, their inadequate knowledge of English, need special attention in school.

Mr. Freeson

Will my hon. Friend therefore undertake an inquiry in his Department as to why an answer was given to people inquiring from my area, including myself, by a civil servant in the Ministry that a child born of immigrant parents within ten years of their coming to this country was to be defined as an immigrant child?

Mr. Howell

I will certainly look into any answer given to my hon. Friend. I am staggered that if he were seeking information from my Department he did not communicate with Ministers.

3. Mr. Freeson

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science upon what statistical or other evidence based on social and educational studies he concludes that there is a need for organised dispersal of immigrant children by local education authorities, as would be required by the implementation of his Circular 7/65.

Mr. Denis Howell

The Secretary of State is in constant touch with the local education authorities who are carrying the main responsibility for the education of immigrant children. Detailed information and advice about the educational and social considerations which apply is also available to him from H.M. Inspectorate of schools. He has concluded from a close study of this information, and on the professional advice of those most closely associated with this problem, that the difficulties in both schools and classes are manageable where the number of immigrants is generally not in excess of 30 per cent. of the total number of children. Practical experience in the schools shows that when this figure is exceeded the proportion of immigrant children tends to increase rapidly and such a situation militates against a policy of integration which is the main aim of the Government.

Mr. Freeson

Is my hon. Friend aware that in fact this is not the general experience in all areas—and I choose my words carefully—where there are immigrants settling in this country, while it may be true in certain specified areas. Are we to take it from my hon. Friend's reply that there have been no properly designed social surveys and studies made as a basis for this circular?

Mr. Howell

My hon. Friend is quite wrong to say that. There is the overwhelming evidence of the professional people involved—and I know this from my own practical experience of sending my own children to such a school. These problems are manageable up to a certain percentage, after which a considerable difficulty arises. It is interesting to note that the London headmasters have just produced a report and that the teachers of Birmingham are saying exactly the same thing. Both those authorities are not pursuing the Government's policy. The teachers, professionally, on educational grounds and not on any political or racialist grounds, are saying from practical experience that the Government are right in this matter. I believe that we should take note of what people are saying who are in the trade dealing with the problem.

Mr. Speaker

That answer was too long.

Mr. Hornby

Is the Joint Under-Secretary aware that many experts, particularly in the United States, consider that his figure of 30 per cent. is unduly high? Would he not be well advised to look at the evidence on this figure again to ensure that he avoids the dangers which he is trying to avoid?

Mr. Howell

I believe that there is some evidence on which to say that some people believe that the figure is too high. However, others think that it is too low. Therefore, I think that we are right in thinking that it is about correct.