§ (1) For the purposes of this Act the Gunmakers Company shall keep in the prescribed form a register of outworkers and, subject as hereinafter provided, shall enter therein the name of any person who applies to be registered as an outworker and furnishes them with the prescribed particulars:
§ Provided that the Gunmakers Company may refuse to register an applicant if they are satisfied that the applicant cannot be permitted to carry on business as an outworker without danger to the public safety or to the peace.
§ (2) If the Gunmakers Company, after giving reasonable notice to any person whose name is on the register, are satisfied that that person—
- (a) is no longer carrying on business as an outworker; or
- (b) cannot be permitted to carry on business as an outworker without danger to the public safety or to the peace,
§ (3) The Gunmakers Company shall also cause the name of any person to be removed from the register if that person so desires.
§ (4) Any person aggrieved by a refusal of the Gunmakers Company to register him as an outworker, or by the removal of his name from the register by the Gunmakers Company, may appeal—
- (a) in England to the Court of Quarter Sessions having jurisdiction in the county, borough or place in which there is situate any place of business in respect of which the appellant has applied to be, or (in the case of an appeal against removal from the register) has been, registered, and the provisions of the First Schedule to the principal Act shall with the substitution of references to the Gunmakers Company For references to the Chief Officer of Police apply to any such appeal; or
- (b) in Scotland, in accordance with Act of Sederunt, to the sheriff within whose jurisdiction any such place of business is situated.—[Mr. J. E. B. Hill.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
§ Mr. J. E. B. Hill (Norfolk, South)I beg to move, That the Clause be read a Second time.
Mr. Deputy-SpeakerIt will be in order to discuss with this new Clause the following Amendments:
No. 16—in page 4, line 25, Clause 9, after "but", insert:
nothing in the said sections and Schedule as applied to shot guns shall apply to a person who is for the time being duly registered as an outworker under section (Registration of outworkers) of this Act and";No. 18—in page 5, line 7, Clause 10, at end insert:The Gunmakers Company" means the Master Wardens and Society of the Mystery of Gunmakers of the City of London";No. 19—in page 5, line 12, at end insert:outworker" means a self employed person who by way of trade or business manufactures, tests, or repairs component parts of a firearm for a registered firearms dealer but except as aforesaid does not by way of trade or business manufacture, sell, transfer, test or prove firearms or ammunition to which Part I of the Principal Act applies".
§ Mr. HillI should first like to thank the Joint Under-Secretary of State for the consideration he gave this new Clause at very short notice when it appeared as a starred Amendment about a fortnight ago, when this Report stage was expected to be taken on 29th April.
625 This series of Amendments has been put down at the request of members of the gun trade who, on examining the Bill as it emerged from Standing Committee, discovered that a serious though limited practical difficulty arose under Clause 9(2). That subsection now requires manufacturers of and dealers in shotguns to register as firearms dealers. Furthermore, the definition of firearms which is contained in Section 32 of the main Firearms Act, 1937, includes any component parts as well as a whole weapon. It follows that some vitally important specialist craftsmen in the industry known as out-workers now seem to be required to register as firearms dealers.
The outworker is essentially a self-employed craftsman, who makes, tests and repairs mainly the component parts of firearms, but does not sell or otherwise trade in firearms. There are about 150 of these craftsmen, mostly working in London and Birmingham, with a few in Edinburgh and Glasgow, and in the West Country. They work on their own, or two or three of them may work in one workshop. Most of their work is the shaping by hand of components to exact tolerances. In fact, they transform the chunks of metal and wood into superb examples of precise and elegant craftsmanship that have made the best British guns famous throughout the world.
Their range of craftsmanship is fairly narrowly specialised. These men are described as barrel-filers, barrel-makers, action jointers, action filers, top-level workers and furniture filers. Those are some of the key rôles in what is correctly described as the "mystery" of gun-making. They work in their own workshops, often under dirty conditions which are certainly not conducive to office work. The submission of the trade is that it is really unnecessary, and somewhat onerous, to require these men to register as full-blown firearms dealers even if, and this is accepted, it is desirable to maintain a register of outworkers.
It is onerous, in the first place, because these men do not deal in firearms in the accepted sense. They do not in their trade have contact with the general public. Secondly, keeping a firearms register is a very laborious and detailed undertaking in which every transaction relating to a firearm, in this case a component, has to 626 be recorded as to its delivery, return, and so on.
8.45 p.m.
The work of the outworker is essentially batches of components coming in with no separate identity, being received, worked upon and returned to the registered firearms dealers who are their trade customers. The outworker would not willingly wish to pay the registration fees and the annual renewal fees and get involved in all the office work which is rightly part and parcel of the registered firearms dealer's business.
None of these complications would arise if these men were employed by, and worked on the premises of, any one gunmaking firm, but that is not the structure of the industry. These men are self-employed and independent men—often highly independent men—working for different trade customers on their own premises. They are not unlike the specialist craftsman in the silver trade and perhaps in custom-built tailoring.
Therefore, although the gun trade accepts the desirability of registering outworkers, to compel them to set up as fully registered firearms dealers would probably lead to undesirable consequences. For example, many of these men are getting on in years and, rather than undertake wholly new obligations for which they are not fitted, they would probably choose to retire. The younger men are always able to seek highly-paid employment in other branches of the engineering industry, because they possess exceptional skill. Therefore, there is a danger that, if they were deterred by the possibility of having to undertake a great deal of paper work, they would choose to leave their employment, and that undoubtedly would have a disastrous effect on the gun trade, especially in the highest grade, much of which is exported. I remind the House that the current price of a best pair of English guns which foreign customers are eager to pay is of the order of £1,500. The trade is worth well over £1 million a year.
The gun trade thinks that some simpler form of registration would be more acceptable and easier to enforce. The Amendment is offered as the gun trade's own suggested solution of the difficulty. The Gunmakers Company, which is anciently incorporated under charter of 627 Charles I in 1637, has long been responsible for carrying out the very important duties of proving and testing of weapons and administering the London Proof House. The company has expressed itself as willing to undertake this further duty and to maintain a register of these craftsmen outworkers, whether in London or elsewhere, in the terms of the Clause, with any modifications the Minister may think desirable.
The Clause is put forward as a constructive and workable alternative to the somewhat impracticable requirements of the Bill as it now seems to affect out-workers. It is essential not to burden these men unnecessarily and discourage them, because if ever an industry had key workers it is this one.
§ Mr. Airey Neave (Abingdon)I support the Clause and the Amendments being taken with it. I repeat the thanks which my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, South (Mr. J. E. B. Hill) has tendered to the Joint Under-Secretary for his consideration of this point at rather short notice. These outworkers, as my hon. Friend says, are part self-employed and very often employed by several different firms. The question of their keeping a firearms register would be extremely complicated. They are engaged on making or repairing component parts of guns which would be very difficult to identify and it is one of the major difficulties about keeping a firearms register in the sense of the Firearms Act, as firearms, defined in the 1937 Act, includes component parts.
They would, therefore, be brought into the legislation which the Home Office is proposing without these Amendments. Registering them as firearms dealers would seem rather absurd and would be going much further than is really necessary because firearms dealers in the Bill as it stands includes a person who repairs firearms and I do not think that the original legislation in 1937 was ever intended to include self-employed craftsmen as dealers.
These outworkers are not dealing in firearms, but are only repairing components. This is why my hon. Friend and myself put down Amendment 19 at page 5, line 12, Clause 10, to insert the 628 meaning of the word "outworker". If I may read it to the House it means
… a self employed person who by way of trade or business manufactures, tests, or repairs component parts of a firearm for a registered firearms dealer but except as aforesaid does not by way of trade or business manufacture, sell, transfer, test or prove firearms or ammunition to which Part I of the Principal Act applies.It applies only to a person who tests or repairs component parts of a firearm. Would not the suggestion of my hon. Friend and myself, put forward by the Gunmakers Company, and the gun trade, be a sufficient form of registration? Could not chief constables check up if they wanted to do so under the list of persons registered by the Gunmakers Company as we propose in our Clause? We do not think it is practicable to make these 150 individual craftsmen keep firearms registers in the accepted sense of the word. It will be rather absurd and will lead to considerable damage in the industry and may lead to members leaving the business. The question remains: would it be practicable to make people who have to repair unidentified component parts keep a firearms register in the sense of the original legislation?If this is the view that commends itself to the Under-Secretary, I hope that he will see some way of making the register, perhaps by way of chief constables getting hold of the list through the Gunmakers Company, but not making them firearms dealers in the sense of the Bill as it stands.
§ The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. George Thomas)I am much obliged and very grateful to both hon. Gentlemen, the Member for Norfolk, South (Mr. J. E. B. Hill) and the Member for Abingdon (Mr. Neave), for their references to myself. I grew up in a home in a Welsh valley where the craftsmen of England were held in high esteem, plus, of course, the craftsmen of Wales. I was to discover, however, with the passing of years that the craftsmen are an independent people, as the hon. Gentleman the Member for Norfolk, South reminded me.
It was my privilege to talk with the representatives of the gun trade on this question and I realise what a deep concern they have about outworkers being 629 registered. The effect of the new Clause and of the Amendments is, as we have been told, to provide for the registration of outworkers with the Gunmakers Company—though I gather neither hon. Gentleman would wish to stick to that if an alternative formula could be found—and to obviate the need for them to register with the police. I understand that the outworkers usually undertake work for the gun trade, such as barrel blacking, engraving, action firing, stocking and so on. It is true, as the hon. Gentleman pointed out, that they will now he required to register with the police as the Bill stands at present.
The hon. Member for Norfolk, South told us of the anxieties of the trade that these independent sturdy craftsmen who are outworkers would object to keeping records because they are primarily craftsmen and are not accustomed to keeping records. They are craftsmen of very high quality, and craftsmen of high quality are usually very intelligent people. The records which they would be required to keep would be simple, straightforward records of their work. It is not intended that a grevious burden should be imposed on them.
The hon. Member for Norfolk, South also said that these people would be likely to object to the registration fee. I have never met anyone who enjoyed paying a registration fee. We all come in this category. But I am sure that that is the slightest of objections, because if the trade felt strongly about this matter the manufacturers would meet the fee. The matter could easily be covered in that way. I am told that, in the main, the outworkers are elderly people who have been in the trade for many years. This makes it clear that registration should cause no difficulty to these experienced craftsmen. They are known to the police. They are respected people. The police know their conditions. The conditions of registration which the chief constables are likely to lay down would not be onerous.
One of the main purposes of this Measure is to ensure that a careful watch is taken over the repair, manufacture and sale of guns, and it is possible that this could be a loophole. We have looked at this matter with great sympathy. I confess that as I listened to the trade I made up my mind that I would help it if 630 it were possible to do so, but we feel that it is much wiser that anyone who has anything to do with the manufacture or repair of guns should be under the supervision of the police and certainly not of any other body, however reputable it may be.
I hope that the hon. Members for Norfolk, South and Abingdon will take it from me that there is plenty of good will towards the trade. We had a very harmonious Committee upstairs. After the first little sharp burst of sniping earlier tonight, we have, for the time being, returned to the calm atmosphere of the Standing Committee. The hon. Member for Norfolk, South has stated the case fairly, but in our considered judgment it is much better for all who repair guns to be known and to be registered. Since we are taking so many powers in the Bill, it would be foolish to leave this one loophole. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will feel that he need not press the proposed Clause and the Amendments.
§ 9.0 p.m.
§ Mr. Richard Sharples (Sutton and Cheam)My hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, South (Mr. J. E. B. Hill) will be a little disappointed by the Joint Under-Secretary's reply. I know that he has, as he always does, considered the matter with great care, but I would ask him whether he will have another look at this proposal between now and when the Bill goes to another place.
This is in some ways a small problem, but in other ways it is a very real one. I am sure the hon. Gentleman appreciates how difficult it is for people engaged in small workshops dealing with small parts of weapons—not whole weapons—to keep a register of each separate part.
If the hon. Gentleman looks at Section 8 of the Firearms Act, 1937, I am sure that he will agree that a person of this kind, in a small way of business, dealing only with a very small part of the industry, would be terrified at having to comply with all the elaborate provisions of that Section. As has been said, these in the main are elderly people, but none the less they are very important. They are people upon whom very largely the export trade in guns, for which this country has a justified reputation, is dependent.
631 I appreciate that the Under-Secretary might not be able to accept the proposal in the form in which it has been put, but perhaps he could consider between now and a later stage whether some simpler form of registration of these people, with a simpler form of record keeping, could be worked out with the police. I think that is all my hon. Friends and I would ask for. I do not know what my hon. Friend's intention is, but if we could have an assurance of that sort I feel that he might well be inclined to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Mr. George ThomasIt is, of course, the chief constable who will decide what conditions of registration are necessary. They will differ from dealer to dealer. Certainly, most of these people are in the Birmingham area, and I am sure that the chief constable there, knowing the problem, will ensure that as far as possible the conditions are not made onerous for these people.
I wish that I could give the hon. Gentleman the assurance for which he asks, but if I did I would be misleading him and the House and raising false hopes. We looked at this proposal with sympathy and care, but we have been driven to the conclusion which I have submitted to the House, and I earnestly hope that the hon. Gentleman, who presented his case so forcefully, will accept from me that we are bound to take our stand on this point.
§ Mr. J. E. B. HillI accept that the Joint Under-Secretary feels obliged to keep this question of registration under Home Office control and, therefore, that he would prefer it done through chief constables.
I think the hon. Gentleman has been pessimistic in suggesting that the out-worker represents a loophole. I really think that is going too far. If he examines our definition he will see that we are limiting this proposal to outworkers who do not have in their possession complete firearms. This is essentially to protect the person who works only on components. By definition he does not trade at all in firearms or weapons. Yet at the moment it seems that chief constables will have to observe the general regulations—I imagine they are laid down centrally—in the format of the firearms register.
632 I understand that that is a very detailed document, because naturally it records the movements not of odd components such as stocks or half-made-up barrels but complete firearms ready for use and going out to the general public. The traffic which I am describing is that of components between craftsmen and the gun-making firms. There would be no difficulty if these craftsmen were not self-employed and in many cases working for various companies. To describe this as a loophole is very pessimistic.
Likewise I should be happier if the Under-Secretary could look at this matter and accept the idea of keeping a separate register for these men. If they looked at the Bill and examined the penalties in it for not keeping a firearms register properly they would say, "This is a very sharp application to be put upon us when we are not in the area of trade of the regular firearms dealer." That argument would apply even more forcibly to the fee, because they would say, "Why should we pay £5 fee when we are not doing any of this trade?" I am sure that that must appeal to the Under-Secretary who is a Welshman.
I should feel happier therefore if the hon. Gentleman would continue to look at this problem and consider the keeping of a separate register. We want to know who is employed in this kind of work. A separate register would obviate the difficulty of these men having to equip themselves with all the paraphernalia of forms and registers concerned with firearms. I would hope that the hon. Gentleman would look at the matter again and consider whether administratively he could not make a simpler form. I am sure that this would satisfy the trade. I know that these men are elderly, but let us remember that the continuance of this important trade depends upon recruiting young men. Do not let us therefore create a deterrent to that recruiting. I do not wish to press the matter to a Division and I therefore beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
§ Motion, and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.