HC Deb 04 May 1965 vol 711 cc1161-6
Mr. Lee

I beg to move Amendment No. 13, in page 15, line 3, to leave out from "or" to the end of line 5 and insert: the person who would have been entitled to grant that right if it had not been acquired by any gas authority".

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

We can discuss with this Amendment the Opposition's Amendment No. 12—in page 15, line 3, leave out from "authority" to end of line 5.

Mr. Lee

The intention of subsection (6) is to prevent the gas industry from transferring to any third party the rights of underground storage which have been granted to a gas authority under Clause 12. This matter was discussed in Committee, and we tried to summarise the intentions of our wording. Our view is that the gas industry, when it no longer needs the right of underground storage in any particular piece of land, should be free to surrender it by restoring it to the same ownership as the land in which the right is exercisable. In other words, it is not the Government's intention that a right of underground storage should be transferable from the gas industry to any other person.

Criticism was levelled against the present wording. We wanted to look at the wording again to see whether it did the things which we believed it did. We have done that, and I concede at once that the phrase a person for the time being having an interest in the stratum does not perhaps make clear, at any rate to the lay mind, that this is the intention. The Amendment would get rid of those words. I think that the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) deployed an argument on this point.

In Committee what should be the content of Clause 12(6) was illustrated in a number of ways. The hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) suggested that the Bill should make it possible for the exercisable rights of the landowner to be returned to him. To put it in another way, it should enable the landowner to occupy the position which he occupied before the authority acquired storage rights in his land. We are agreed in trying to get the same result and to find a form of words which would achieve this. That is the concept behind the Amendment. I do not think it can say that the gas authority may restore the rights to the original owner, because the ownership of the land might have changed by the time the gas authority no longer needed the right to store. Another way of identifying the one and only person to whom the gas industry is to be entitled to pass back its underground storage rights would be to say it is the person to whom the authority would need to go if it were seeking to acquire the rights instead of to dispose of them.

Having looked at the words in the Bill I agree that there is a point in the argument which was deployed during the Committee stage. I hope that hon. Members opposite will agree that this Amendment resolves the problem and abundantly meets the intention we discussed.

Mr. Ridley

I am grateful to the Minister for taking such care about the point we raised during the Committee stage and I feel that he has tried to meet us. We all agree that the words in the Bill are slightly ambiguous. They could lead to the possibility of a third person having the right to store gas in the strata. We can now be certain that the third person has been removed.

At first sight the words suggested by the Minister appear suitable and would seem to indicate that the right would go back to the person owning the surface land and to no other person. It occurs to me that a person acquiring the surface land would also, so to speak, acquire a right to store gas under the surface if the Amendment is accepted. This could open up the way for a chemical or an oil company, which wished to use the strata, to acquire the land during the time the gas authority was using the storage facility. The right to store gas might revert to the chemical or oil company at the time of the discontinuance of storage by the gas authority. That is not, I am sure, what the right hon. Gentleman wants and it is not what we want.

Before we leave the Amendment I hope that the Minister will give us an assurance that this would not be possible. As I see it, the trouble is that we have brought a right into existence which is of value and which does not exist in any other sense before the Bill becomes operative. No one has any value or right to store gas at present. Having brought that right into existence through this Bill, we have the greatest difficulty in extinguishing it. It will continue to exist no matter who is the owner. Here the difficulty may be described as principally technical. Whoever owns the land will acquire the right to use the strata. We are grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for going into the point. We think that the Amendment makes the situation much clearer and is a great improvement on the original wording in the Bill.

Perhaps the Minister would address himself to the point which I have raised, whether there could be a loophole of which advantage might be taken by a person acquiring the land in the meanwhile. I should be grateful to hear from the Minister on that point. We accept with gratitude the effort which he has made to meet us in this matter.

6.15 p.m.

Mr. Lee

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) for what he has said and I take the point which he has made. The land in which storage rights were exercisable will remain under the control of the Minister by virtue of the provisions in Clause 5 of the Bill until such time as the Minister is satisfied under Clause 18(7) that it is safe to direct otherwise. That, I think, is the kind of guarantee for which the hon. Gentleman was seeking. He is concerned about the safety during the rundown period after storage is discontinued. It is the control exercised by the Minister, to which I have referred, which really matters in this connection. I am practically certain that I am right, but if I am wrong we will look at the matter again and make the necessary alterations.

Mr. Ridley

I am grateful to the Minister. What he has said does help, but it is conceivable that these storages will exist for many thousands of years and what happened in the past will be history. It is conceivable that the right to store will be revoked by the Minister and the duty to satisfy himself that all is safe and finished will lapse. The land with the storage facilities will pass into the hands of some person who may wish to store gas in the strata. Permission having been granted in the past, that person may walk into a ready-made permission to store. It is not only during the period of control under Clause 5 but after it lapses that this may arise.

I do not wish to press the right hon. Gentleman on the point which obviously is a complicated one. I hope that he will give us an assurance that he will look at the matter carefully, and, if necessary, will take the opportunity in another place to put it right. I have pleasure in welcoming this Amendment.

Mr. Peyton

I agree with my hon. Friend. I think that this is a point of some importance. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will give the undertaking for which my hon. Friend has asked and I should like it clear on the record that the Minister has agreed to this. We want to ensure that the landlord retains the position which he occupied previously. That is the intention of hon. Members on both sides of the House. We want him to enjoy all the rights he did before, neither more nor less, and it is the "neither more" which is the thing I a m stressing.

Mr. Lee

I indicated to the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury that I think that what we are proposing puts this absolutely right, but I will look at the matter again. If there is any doubt, we will seek to redress it in another place.

Amendment agreed to.