HC Deb 25 March 1965 vol 709 cc1159-70

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn until Monday next.—[Mr. Short.]

12.32 p.m.

Mr. Lewis Carter-Jones (Eccles)

It has indeed been a hard day's night, but I am looking forward to this debate because it concerns a topic which is very near and dear to my heart.

There are two major problems which I should like to see being tackled by the Ministry of Education with regard to adult education. I should like the Ministry to consider, first, the provision of educational courses for mature students. This may seem rather strange, especially when I ask that provision should be made for courses for mature students who are already extremely well qualified. I say this because many people who are already well qualified find that their knowledge quickly dates. They find that with the passage of time, and with the development of new techniques and new research methods, the knowledge which they acquired when they took their first degree, or obtained their first certificate, is quickly rendered out of date.

Paragraph 167 of the Robbins Report says: As the pace of discovery quickens it will become increasingly important for practitioners in many fields to take courses at intervals to bring them up to date in their subjects. A rapid development of such courses in university institutions is one of the recommendations we made in Chapter VIII. According to Robbins, the problem arises not because of a dearth of courses, for there have been notable developments in recent years, but partly because of inadequate support from employers, and partly because of a lack of awareness of the opportunities that exist.

Notice taken that 40 Members were not present;

House counted, and, 40 Members being present—

12.35 p.m.

Mr. Carter-Jones

It gives me great pleasure to continue in the knowledge that the Opposition are in no way interested in the furtherance of adult education courses in this country. I think that this should be noted by everyone. I am grateful for the presence of one hon. Gentleman who has recently been returned to the House.

If we are to take full advantage of the new technique, and new knowledge, if we are to stimulate interest, and if people are rapidly to acquire the new skills and new "know-how" so that society generally can benefit, the Ministry of Education will have to make a tremendous effort to allow people from all walks of life to continue their education. In view of the last debate, I hesitate to raise the matter again, but vast sums of money may be called for to provide this sort of education.

In another place in November last year Lord Bowden referred to the fact that it is now the view in America that this sort of education accounts for about one-third of their total education costs. In this country we spend a very small sum of money indeed on the provision of this type of course, and, unfortunately, we do not seem to appreciate that by spending a small sum of money we can acquire a tremendous amount of new knowledge and new techniques which will be to the advantage of our whole society.

It is remarkable how quickly the medical practitioner finds his knowledge rendered out of date. The progressive medical man who wants to keep abreast of current knowledge can do so only at considerable expense and inconvenience to himself. It follows that the same sort of situation arises for technologists, scientists, and even art graduates. This is particularly true with regard to technical education and arts learning which has developed apace in this country of recent years.

I suggest that there are two main methods by which we can provide this form of education. First, we can think in terms of providing short one-day courses—I admit that that is the minimum aim—but stimulated by first-class visual aids we can try to give the people who are responsible for the spread of knowledge, and responsible for technical improvements, and for curing the sick, the opportunity of bringing their knowledge up to date. I hope that the machine which I saw recently can eventually be produced cheaply, but there is a new machine on the market called Filcol which provides us with a wonderful opportunity of ensuring that the people to whom I have referred are able to keep their knowledge up to date.

With regard to the other category of mature students who have already qualified, I want to point out the importance of long-term second degree courses. This is a field in which adequate provision has been made but, unfortunately, we do not publicise these schemes sufficiently; neither do we provide people who want to acquire further knowledge with sufficient financial help.

I wish to refer to two courses, and they are two of many. One is a course at Manchester where it is possible to get a master of science (technology) degree in solid state electronics. I do not pretend to understand what solid state electronics are, but I have been assured by my colleagues in the technical college at which I lectured before coming to this House that this subject is very important to the export market and to the future development of this country.

There is also a course at Birmingham. I refer to this because I have a colleague who would like to take a course at that university. It is a course in reactor physics and technology. I have found that people who attended university and took a degree in physics 10 or 12 years ago now find themselves completely out of date, and an opportunity should be given to people who are primarily responsible for the spread of this type of knowledge to attend these courses. I ask the Minister to consider giving greater publicity to these courses and providing adequate financial help, for in the end society will gain.

I now come to the second-chance type of student. I have spent a considerable amount of my working life with this type of student. They are the people who attend extra-mural and W.E.A. classes and who will possibly follow courses in the university of the air which we hope will eventually be set up. If we are to have a proper follow-up to this sort of study, the Ministry must be much more progressive and positive than it has been in the past in giving help to people who wish to avail themselves of it.

Several problems arise when dealing with the older people who acquire an interest in education. The dilemma is this. When people reach 30 or 35 years of age their confidence in their ability has been sapped. The first task of the tutor is to try to convince them that they possess the potential qualities necessary to enable them to benefit from these courses. In addition, having persuaded them of their potential, they then have to be encouraged to apply, either to one of the adult colleges such as Ruskin, Coleg Harlech, Newbattle or Fircroft, or to take a mature scholarship for one of the universities. However, these are all too few.

Having first encouraged these people to take these courses, having got them to apply and having found them a place in a college, we come up against the greatest snag of all—the problem of finding money. This is really the tragedy. Casting my mind back over the 15 years that I spent in adult education, I would think that only one out of every 100 of my promising students ever applied. When we consider the record of these students who took the courses, the success rate is remarkable and fantastic. Large numbers of them succeeded in going to places like Ruskin College and then on to Magdalene where they took first-class degrees in English literature. The failure rate amongst this type of student is far lower than among any other student undertaking advanced work. Because of the lack of educational opportunity in the past, we ought to think carefully about these people.

Even when these people obtain their qualifications at the age of 30, 35 or 40, so great is their desire to serve mankind that in any case society will gain as a result of the education which they have obtained. Despite the cost involved, enlightened self-interest demands that the country should make greater provision for the older second-chance students as well as providing latest knowledge courses for those who are already highly qualified.

12.46 p.m.

The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Mr. R. E. Prentice)

I wish to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Eccles (Mr. Carter-Jones) on raising this subject. May I also congratulate him on his lucidity at this hour, in view of the lengthy sitting of the House which I know my hon. Friend has attended.

My hon. Friend has raised a matter of great importance. My only difficulty in replying is that it is a very broad subject, of which he has covered many aspects, but clearly this is a subject which the House ought to debate, and I hope that we shall debate it at greater length on some future occasion when more Members will be able to participate in greater detail.

My hon. Friend has made an eloquent case for the expansion of courses in the fields which he has indicated. This is important from the point of view of the individuals concerned, and what my hon. Friend said about the failure rate is very revelant because this is evidence that we are making proportionately a smaller effort than we are in other educational fields. We agreed in our debate yesterday afternoon about the need to expand further education courses at all levels, but here there is a need for greater expansion. In terms of the changing economy, my hon. Friend was particularly relevant in his reference to the need for people to get up to date with their skills and to learn new skills two or three times in a working life.

With regard to providing full-time courses for adult students, it is worth pointing out that the biggest provision at the moment is in technical knowledge where the numbers of adults attending full-time courses are larger than in some of the other categories which my hon. Friend mentioned. Of the number of students attending technical colleges, the total number for all kinds of courses, full-time and part-time, is about 1 million, of whom 52 per cent. are over 20. I do not know how many there are over 35, but obviously there would be a fairly substantial proportion. Among the 33,000 at present attending full-time or sandwich courses, one-quarter of these are over 20.

As to the expansion of that programme, this is a matter which the House debated earlier. The House will be aware that the Government have announced an expansion programme for higher education to include full-time courses in the technical colleges up to 1973, approximately on the lines recommended by the Robbins Committee. Deducting from the total number of extra places for higher education generally the totals announced for universities and teacher training colleges, we are left with an expansion of full-time courses up to 50,000 by 1973. I hope that we shall do rather better than that. This is in some ways the most open-ended part of the expansion of higher education. When talking about these colleges, the resources that we have can be adapted fairly quickly as between full-time and part-time courses and as between courses at different levels, and therefore they are more flexible resources than, for example, the universities, and so on.

My hon. Friend mentioned the work done by colleges such as Ruskin. He may be aware that we are committed at the moment to a certain amount of expansion. There are five residential colleges which form a group—Ruskin, Fircroft, Hillcroft, Coleg Harlech, and the Catholic Workers' College at Oxford, all of which are grant-aided by my Department, the Department paying about 40 per cent. of the running costs of the colleges. At the moment, they have 350 places between them and the expansion they are to undertake in the next three years will lead to another 100 places. I accept it if my hon. Friend says that a great deal more is needed, but we are at the moment committed to a degree of expansion here.

Clearly one of the problems here is the grant of awards to students and the ability of students to afford such courses. Most of the courses we are talking about come within the category known as non-designated. That is a rather bureaucratic word. As hon. Members may know, in relation to student grants what we call the designated awards are for first degree courses or the equivalent where the amounts paid to students are laid down in regulations issued by my Department. The amount of the awards are under review at the moment by the Standing Advisory Committee, and whatever changes are recommended and accepted by the Secretary of State will take effect from September of this year. The non-designated awards are for other forms of higher and further education where there is autonomy with the local education authorities. This is a matter on which people may take one view or the other, but that is the present position.

I draw attention to the fact that a circular was issued last year to L.E.A.s drawing particular attention to the value of courses at Ruskin College and similar institutions and asking them—the Government have no statutory power to compel them—to ensure that adequate awards are available for students who go to those colleges. The Department had in mind particularly adult students of the categories my hon. Friend mentioned.

Dr. Wyndham Davies (Birmingham, Perry Barr)

The hon. Member for Eccles (Mr. Carter-Jones) mentioned the great value of the work of the Workers' Education Association in adult education. I have had experience of the type of educational work done by the Association, particularly in such subjects as marine biology, which is not dealt with in many centres. For example, an extraordinary number of ordinary people, through such activities as the British Subaqua Club, have started to take an interest in the world around them and in all that the sea has to do with the life of everything in Britain. I hope that the Minister of State will be able to give some indication this afternoon that additional help will be given to these activities of the Association.

Mr. Prentice

Additional help, in fact, was announced by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State in an Answer about 10 days ago. The hon. Gentleman can see the details in HANSARD. I have recently been in touch with the W.E.A. and am meeting the Association to discuss future problems it may have. I take the point about the value of the Association. Many of us on this side, too, have had experience of working with the Association.

I want to make a number of brief references to the very important question of refresher courses, which was an important part of my hon. Friend's speech. Having studied the problem, the general assessment one can make is that the universities, the C.A.Ts, the F.E. colleges, and so on, are by and large expanding and making provision for further expansions. As my hon. Friend said, the major problem is to increase the demand. I use "demand" in the sense of effective demand, meaning people who can afford to go to courses and who get the consent of their employers to attend courses. This is the direction in which a great deal of expansion must take place. The facilities in the colleges must be there as well. This is something on which the record at the moment is perhaps patchy.

On the whole, the opening is rather one of making the demand effective than of expanding facilities, because some courses in many fields are under-subscribed. For-example, last year the colleges of advanced technology provided 500 students with what are called post-experience refresher courses, meaning people who had done their academic work, had obtained experience in industry, and were returning for a refresher course of perhaps a month's duration. Of those 500, only 200 had financial help from their employers. This is something we want to see stepped up.

The major instrument which should be used is the Industrial Training Act. The new industrial training boards are getting into their stride this year. The first of their recommendations will be published next month, and one will be published in the following month. The Government hope that these boards will take within their scope not merely the traditional forms of training of craftsmen, and so on, but refresher work for people of all grades. We hope that they will use their powers so that there will be, not only encouragement for employers, but a certain amount of sanction so that employers will make arrangements for their employees to attend such courses.

The whole field of management training, about which hon. Members on both sides are concerned, is very relevant to this. Within industry we want managers to take training a great deal more seriously. We believe that it is still in too many firms a sign of weakness if a man asks to go on a course. It should become much more firmly part of the policy of industry and commerce that managers and specialists of all kinds will take refresher training.

This is also relevant in the professions. I will draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health to what my hon. Friend has said about the retraining of doctors. Something has been done in this respect by establishing a fund within the framework of the National Health Service. We would all agree that much more needs to be done.

I have replied to the debate in very general terms. This is a wide subject, on which we should like to have a much more detailed debate. I hope that the House will be able to return to the subject from time to time.

12.58 p.m.

Mr. Peter Emery (Reading)

As a Member is able to raise any matter on the Adjournment, it seems to me that it is only right and proper at the end of today's proceedings that somebody should draw the attention of the House to the most shocking behaviour of a Government in living memory in interfering with private Members' time. We have seen the power of Government used, without any thought for Members, to frustrate the bringing forward of a Private Member's Bill that has won a place in the Ballot. We have seen the power of Government used, for the first time since the war, to frustrate a private Member in bringing forward his Bill in this way. From the Government Front Bench a Minister suggested that we should not adjourn bcause there were so many Members who wished to make speeches on certain matters on the Consolidated Fund Bill. Within a matter of two hours of that being said, with over 20 Members on this side on their feet and with at least four of five hon. Members opposite on their feet, the Patronage Secretary—

Mr. Eric Ogden (Liverpool, West Derby)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Emery

No. I have not time. I asked a Minister seven times to give way. She promised to give way during her speech, but she finished her speech without giving way. That is the sort of behaviour we have seen from the Government today. We have seen the Government suggest that debate should continue in order that private Members could raise matters on the Consolidated Fund Bill and then, lo and behold, with 25 hon. Members on their feet, the Patronage Secretary moves the Closure. This is the sort of dictatorial Government which we had hoped would never he seen in this country.

Mr. Ogden

On a point of order.Is the term "dictatorial" suitable in the circumstances when the matter was put quite fairly to the vote and the vote showed by three to two the desire of the House on that issue and when the hon. Member has put this point in the almost complete absence of his so-called supporters?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Samuel Storey)

Order. The term is certainly not out of order.

Mr. Emery

The whole action of the Government in this matter further goes to prove my point about their dictatorial behaviour, when they override private Members' time and the opportunities to speak and to raise, as hon. and right hon. Members opposite have suggested, all the great occasions that come up on the Consolidated Fund Bill, and when Ministers speak for over three and a half hours in private Members' time, and then go on to move the Closure. This is the sort of thing that the country should know about, because it brings down the reputation of the House. We want to ensure that this sort of behaviour on the part of the Government is fully understood. [An HON. MEMBER: "Where was the hon. Member?"] I was here for a great deal of the time—all but two hours.

The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock on Thursday evening and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at two minutes past One o'clock p.m. till Monday next, pursuant to the Resolution of the House this day.