HC Deb 25 March 1965 vol 709 cc738-45
Sir Alec Douglas-Home

May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will state the business of the House for next week?

The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Bowden

): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:

MONDAY, 29TH MARCH—Lords Amendment to the Ministerial Salaries and Members" Pensions Bill.

Second Reading of the Monopolies and Mergers Bill.

TUESDAY, 30TH MARCH—Motion on the Post Office.

WEDNESDAY, 31st MARCH—Supply [14th Allotted Day]: Committee which, if the Committee agree, will be taken formally to allow debate on an Opposition Motion on Agriculture and the Farm Price Review.

THURSDAY, 1ST APRIL—Debate on Foreign Affairs, on a Motion for the Adjournment of the House.

Motions on the Double Taxation Relief (Federal Republic of Germany) Order, 1965, and on the Central Banks (Income Tax Schedule C Exemption) Order, 1965.

FRIDAY, 2ND APRIL—Private Members" Motions.

MONDAY, 5TH APRIL—The proposed business will be: Second Reading of the Rent Bill.

Sir Alec Douglas-Home

Is the Leader of the House aware that we shall wish to hear what the Postmaster-General has to say this afternoon before we decide on the form the debate may take on Tuesday?

Mr. Bowden

Yes, Sir, that is appreciated. The right hon. Gentleman will appreciate, equally, that the Post Office has to have a particular Motion, which could, perhaps, be taken formally before the general debate.

Mr. P. Noel-Baker

Could my right hon. Friend arrange for the foreign affairs debate to be extended until 11 p.m., as many hon. Members will want to take part?

Mr. Bowden

I should like to be able to oblige the House in this matter, but there are certain difficulties. Both my right hon. Friends, the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary, have to leave for Paris immediately after ten o'clock that night. It would be extremely difficult to extend the debate beyond ten o'clock, particularly if the Prime Minister should wish to wind up.

Mr. Neave

Will the Leader of the House ensure that the Government take steps to safeguard private Members' time tomorrow?

Mr. Bowden

The Government are always very well aware of the importance of safeguarding private Members' time, but it is really a matter for the House.

Mr. William Hamilton

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that private Members' time on the Consolidated Fund Bill is just as important as private Members' time tomorrow? Can he give an assurance that the Minister of Public Building and Works or some other Minister will now be responsible for answering Questions about the Palace of Westminster and, in particular, which, and how many, people live here, and precisely why?

Mr. Bowden

It is usual on the Consolidated Fund Bill, at least on the second day, that is, on the Third Reading day, for the whole day to be thrown open at the request of the Opposition, as on this occasion, to back benchers who may wish to raise particular subjects. This is to happen today and, perhaps, tonight.

On the second point, I propose soon to move for a Select Committee to be set up to advise Mr. Speaker under the new procedure on the way the House of Commons side of the Palace of Westminster should be controlled.

Mr. Grimond

Is the Leader of the House aware that we are still concerned about the selection of members for Committees? Could he find time in which we could discuss this matter which, I think, arouses some interest on both sides of the House?

Mr. Bowden

Yes, Sir, I think that there is a difficulty here. We are bound by Standing Order No. 61, which may well be looked at by the Select Committee on Procedure. I appreciate that, since yesterday, the representation of the Liberal Party is now 1 in 63 instead of 1 in 70.

Mr. A. Henderson

As all Conservative members of the Committee of Privileges voted yesterday in the Division on the Motion concerning my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Mr. Warbey), will the Leader of the House advise the House whether it is customary for any member of the Committee of Privileges to vote on a Motion for or against a reference to that Committee?

Mr. Speaker

That can hardly arise on next week's business.

Sir C. Osborne

Could the Leader of the House find time, if not next week then the week after, to discuss the serious position of forward sterling which is now at 8 per cent. discount for one month to three months ahead, despite the hundreds of millions of pounds we have spent to support it, so that we may be better able to understand the measures which the Chancellor of the Exchequer will propose to deal with this serious situation?

Mr. Bowden

I cannot promise any time this side of Easter, but it is a subject which the hon. Gentleman could very appropriately raise on the Consolidated Fund Bill.

Mr. A. Henderson

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I understood the Leader of the Liberal Party to ask a question about the composition of Committees, which does not seem to me to have any more reference to business next week than my question.

Mr. Speaker

That may probably be so, but I live in hope that we shall gradually get more and more in order as we go on.

Mr. Grimond

My question was directed to certain Motions on the Order Paper, and I take it that we are entitled, during discussion of the business of the House, to ask whether time may be found to debate them. Surely that is perfectly proper.

Mr. Speaker

I am not joining in anyone's criticism. I find it difficult to remember what Motions remain on the Paper and what do not.

Sir F. Bennett

I appreciate the reason why we cannot have an hour's extension next Thursday, but does not the Leader of the House think, in that case, that we ought to start the business earlier and readjust the week's business so that we may have a full two-day debate on Wednesday and Thursday, since he is just as anxious as we are that every shade of opinion in his party should have opportunity for expression?

Mr. Bowden

I agree that it is usual to have a two-day debate on foreign affairs. There is advantage in this over having two separate days. But, when there are two-day debates on foreign affairs, the Opposition of the day usually give one of the two. There is an Opposition Supply day next week on the Farm Price Review. If representations are made through the usual channels, I am prepared to meet them.

Mr. Shinwell

Will my right hon. Friend use his influence with the Select said before, but I nevertheless appreciate Committee on Procedure to expedite a decision on the problem of Question Time in the House of Commons?

Mr. Bowden

The matter is before the Select Committee on Procedure. I specially wrote to the Clerk of the Committee drawing attention to it. I have no information when it is likely to report.

Sir A. V. Harvey

Will the right hon. Gentleman think again about next Thursday's business and discuss with the Prime Minister the question of the extra hour? Paris is only 250 miles away. The Prime Minister and his colleagues could have a Royal Air Force aircraft to take them over immediately after the debate, or they could get up earlier the next morning.

Mr. Bowden

If one hour makes all the difference, I am prepared to look at the matter again.

Mr. Strauss

Can my right hon. Friend give us any information about the prospect of a fairly early debate on policy on the arts?

Mr. Bowden

I was hoping to fit in a debate, even if only a half-day debate, between now and the Easter Recess, but I cannot promise it firmly.

Mr. George Y. Mackie

Further to my right hon. Friend's point about the composition of Committees, about which we have a Motion on the Order Paper:

[That this House regrets that only one Liberal Member was called on the Second Reading of the Highland Development (Scotland) Bill, a Bill which affects only six constituencies, of which four are represented by Liberals.]

If the right hon. Gentleman wants to do some arithmetic, is he aware that in the Scottish Standing Committee the Opposition now consists of 15 or 16 Conservative Members and one Liberal Member, although there are now five Liberal Members in Scotland? Is he aware that this is causing deep concern all over Scotland and, indeed, on his own side of the House? Can he tell us when we can debate this very serious injustice?

Mr. Bowden

I cannot possibly promise a debate on the subject, as I have that there has been a slight change in the representation in Scotland. The House cannot change the procedure simply by a debate on its own without some reference to the Select Committee on Procedure. It has done this on occasions, but, generally, with a matter of this sort the Select Committee ought to look at the matter previously.

Mr. Warbey

With further reference—

Mr. Lubbock

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not particularly unusual for a Motion of this sort to remain on the Order Paper for any length of time?

Mr. Speaker

That cannot in any view be a point of order. I wish hon. Members would be careful about this. We have enough difficulty without that.

Mr. Warbey

With further reference to the question of the composition of Committees, can my right hon. Friend say how, in view of the behaviour of the right hon. and learned Member for the Wirral (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd) yesterday afternoon, it is possible for hon. Members of the House to bring about the discharge of a right hon. Member from a Select Committee?

Mr. Speaker

Order. This is very remarkable. The hon. Member has been here for a long time. If he wanted to criticise the conduct of another hon. Member, he would have to do it on a substantive Motion. He cannot do it by way of a supplementary question on a business question.

Mr. Warbey

Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. I was asking for the guidance of the Leader of the House precisely as to how this could be done.

Mr. Speaker

I hope that I have assisted the hon. Gentleman in his inquiry.

Mr. Iain Macleod

Further to the point raised from the Liberal benches, is the Leader of the House aware that the Tory Party has a majority in England over all other parties put together? Can we, therefore, have a Tory majority, please, on all English Bills?

Mr. Bowden

The right hon. Gentleman has failed to recognise, if he ever knew, that the matter to which we are referring is specifically Scottish legislation.

Mr. Shinwell

With regard to the foreign affairs debate which is to take place next Thursday, and my right hon. Friend's apparent acquiescence in the suggestion that the time might be extended for one hour, is he aware that on the last occasion when this was agreed only two hon. Members spoke in the last hour? Is he aware that if the time is extended very few additional hon. Members will be able to speak? Therefore, is it worth while extending the time?

Mr. Bowden

I think that we may look at the whole question in considering whether or not we should extend for one hour on Thursday next.

Mr. Box

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the White Paper on steel nationalisation, foreshadowed by the Prime Minister last week, is likely to be published? Will he confirm that we shall have the opportunity of debating it? In view of the Government's apparent anxiety to get the legislation through, can he say why the intentions are being published in the form of a White Paper rather than a steel Bill?

Mr. Bowden

If we had introduced the Bill without a White Paper we should have been asked for a White Paper. I and my right hon. Friends think that it would be advisable in this case, and perhaps in many others, that a White Paper should come before the House before Second Reading. In that case there would be a debate on the White Paper. But I cannot promise it for next week.

Mr. Awdry

Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to reconsider the decision to sit on Wednesday mornings in view of the fact that so few hon. Members opposite were able to be here yesterday morning?

Mr. Bowden

I think that we should give this procedure a run for several weeks before we propose to make any change.

Sir T. Beamish

Can we expect a statement next week about the future of the TSR2, which we have been awaiting for five months, and if it is not made next week, can the House have an absolute assurance that it will not be made during the Easter Recess, which some people think may well be the case?

Mr. Bowden

I cannot promise a statement next week, but I will promise that the statement will not be made during the Recess.

Mr. Monslow

May I take it that my right hon. Friend is not unaware that some of us were engaged on Standing Committees yesterday while the House was sitting in Committee?

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

We must move on towards business.

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