HC Deb 23 March 1965 vol 709 cc305-7
28. Mr. Dodds

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what progress has been made by his Department in the discussions with Essex County Council for the provision of lawful places for gypsies and other travellers to park, particularly during those months when farm work is not available, so that there is no need for them to seek sanctuary in Kent to escape difficulties in Essex.

Mr. Crossman

I understand that the council has approved in principle the provision of sites for itinerants and are at present discussing two sites with the district councils concerned.

Mr. Dodds

Is my right hon. Friend aware that Essex has a very bad record in this connection and that at the last census had twice as many caravan families as Kent? Does he not think that the basic principles involved here—Christianity, Socialism and democracy—are such that we might hold our own freedom march in the County of Essex?

Mr. Crossman

I do not want to cause trouble between Essex and Kent. I gather that between 1962 and the last census the gypsy population of Essex increased from 208 to 234 caravans.

Mr. Dodds

Twice as many as Kent.

Mr. Crossman

It is also true that, unlike Kent, Essex provides no sites for them and that not even planning permission has been obtained. This is a serious situation, because if it is known that one single county is providing sites and others are not, there is a tendency for the bees to cluster round the honey, and this has happened to poor Kent. I agree that those who have been virtuous have not been rewarded for their premature virtue.

Mr. Deedes

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the point he has just made is very serious in the County of Kent and will become progressively more serious in Essex? Is there any way in which he can induce other counties to take these responsibilities more seriously and so avoid the undoubted penalties which are falling on counties which have produced the right answers first?

Mr. Crossman

This is a minor but serious problem and I have just arranged for a national census of gypsies and itinerants, which actually took place yesterday, thanks to the help of the police throughout the country. When I have that information in hand, which will be in a few weeks, we shall be able to assess the allocation of the problem; then we can make up our minds whether we need to do more than try to advise the counties on doing their jobs.

29. Mr. Dodds

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will give the results of the census recently carried out by the Kent County Council in an effort to ascertain the number of gypsies and other travellers without lawful parking places during the winter months.

35. Mr. Murray

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he has now received the results of the census in Kent of gypsies and other travellers; and what action he proposes to take.

Mr. Crossman

The survey carried out by Kent County Council showed within the county 264 caravans apparently needing sites on 1st January this year.

I am waiting for the results of the national census which was carried out yesterday before deciding on my next step.

Mr. Dodds

I thank my right hon. Friend for what he has said. Does he appreciate that for the last 15 years I have heard Minister after Minister make optimistic statements and yet in Kent there are hundreds of men, women and children without water and without sanitation and without the most elementary fundamentals of civilisation? Is it not a scandal that we in this great country can do nothing better than we have done by just making promises over the years?

Mr. Crossman

I have not made any promises. I have undertaken a national census on the basis of which to decide how we can treat this minor problem to make sure that each area takes its responsibility. That is the position. I hope that we can learn a lot, not only from the Dutch example, but also from Southern Ireland where they have tackled this problem very sensibly.

Mr. Murray

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Strood Rural District Council has borne this problem for many, many years? This is a national problem. Is he further aware that unless national action is taken my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Crayford (Mr. Dodds) and myself will make this a long-playing record until he does?

Mr. Crossman

I can quite appreciate hon. Members who represent these areas feeling that this is a grievance. On the other hand, we do not want to burden ourselves with unnecessary legislation unless it is absolutely necessary. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] We have plenty of necessary legislation to push through the House. I want to see what we can do by persuading counties rather than by new legislation imposing burdens on them.