HC Deb 22 March 1965 vol 709 cc16-9
19. Mr. William Hamilton

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many people in England and Wales and Scotland, respectively, are recipients of National Assistance but subject to the provisions of the wage stop regulation; and what steps she intends to take to remedy this position.

Miss Herbison

In December, 1964, when the latest count was taken, the approximate numbers of unemployed persons whose National Assistance allowances were restricted by reference to their normal earnings were 9,500 in England and Wales and 4,500 in Scotland. This is one of the matters which will be examined in the course of the Government's general review of the social security schemes.

Mr. Hamilton

Does my right hon. Friend recognise that the figures show that there is a disproportionate number of people suffering in this way in Scotland in relation to the population because wages in Scotland are generally lower than they are in England? Does not she recognise that this is penalising people who are on National Assistance in Scotland? In view of the deplorable fact that there are people presumably earning wages which are less than the subsistence levels laid down by the National Assistance Board, can my right hon. Friend impress upon the Department and upon other Ministers the desperate urgency of finding a solution to this problem?

Miss Herbison

I think that my hon. Friend knows the attention which I and other Scottish Members have given to this matter over the years. The Minister of Labour, in answer to a Question, said that there were between 50,000 and 150,000 people actually in work whose wages were below National Assistance standards. When I presented the regulations for National Assistance I pointed out that we were giving attention to this point and that family allowances were one important element in the problem. I assure my hon. Friend that I consider this a matter of some urgency.

Mrs. Thatcher

Is the right hon. Lady therefore thinking of implementing her pledge on family allowances which appears on page 15 of "New Frontiers for Social Security"?

Miss Herbison

The hon. Lady will have to wait until the work which we are doing on this matter is completed.

Mr. Edward M. Taylor

Does the right hon. Lady appreciate that her Answer will come as a surprise and shock to those who read her forthright comments, reported in column 926 of the OFFICIAL REPORT, of 29th June, 1964, when she referred to the then 6,000 families living below subsistence level and a substantial number of children suffering from malnutrition in consequence? If the right hon. Lady seriously believes that children are underfed or suffering from starvation she should not be prepared to wait for a review.

Miss Herbison

I said from the beginning that for some years this has been a matter of great concern to me. It is still a matter of great concern, and we on this side of the House are giving urgent consideration to a matter which for years we asked the previous Government to tackle.

Mrs. Lena Jeger

While we appreciate the great thought that my right hon. Friend is giving to this Question, may I ask whether she is aware that many of the workers concerned are almost unemployable and that some have been unemployed for a very long time. Is she aware that in certain cases of which I have personal knowledge a realistic figure of normal wages is not being taken in implementing the wage stop? Could my right hon. Friend look at this urgently while we are waiting the longterm review?

Miss Herbison

This is one of the matters to which I am giving attention. There are other cases, and they vary greatly, about which we may be able to do something before the review is finished. I am having discussions with the National Assistance Board on these very matters.

28. Mr. Leadbitter

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many applicants for National Assistance in The Hartlepools are receiving allowances subject to the limitations of the wage stop; and what is their average allowance.

Mr. Pentland

Separate figures are not available for The Hartlepools, but in the area of the Board's offices in West Hartlepool and Hartlepool, which also covers parts of the Easington, Stockton and Sedgefield Rural Districts, there were 219 unemployed persons whose assistance allowances were restricted by reference to their usual earnings. Information regarding the average allowance paid to these 219 persons is not available.

Mr. Leadbitter

Will my hon. Friend accept from me that this is a great source of irritation in the office? While I am the first to agree that the efficiency of management and staff must always be applauded, there are these slight difficulties which create unpleasantnesses at these offices. If I may refer to a previous Question, will my hon. Friend take into account that the problem of the stop is something which ought to be removed quickly, and may we take it that his right hon. Friend who is looking at prices and incomes will examine the whole question of the limitation of incomes and the limitation of this sort of allowance?

Mr. Pentland

Yes, Sir.