HC Deb 22 March 1965 vol 709 cc3-6
3. Mr. Freeson

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether she will give the estimated number of men and women over 65 and 60 years of age, respectively, who are not in receipt of a State pension, and the number of these who are in need but not in receipt of National Assistance; and whether she will give an undertaking that in the review of social security to be put in hand these elderly people will receive a state pension as of right.

21. Mr. Ennals

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance to what extent, in the review of the social services now being conducted, she will give special consideration to the claims of men and women aged 65 and 60 years, respectively, who are not entitled to a state Pension under existing legislation.

The Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (Miss Margaret Herbison)

The number of old people with no retirement, contributory or non-contributory old-age pension is estimated to be about 370,000, of whom some 250,000 are not receiving help from the National Assistance Board. I regret that I am unable to say how many of the 250,000 might be entitled to assistance if they applied, but the Board is, of course, taking all practicable steps to make the National Assistance scheme known to those who might benefit from it.

As regards the general point, the Government are actively studying the best way of putting into effect their plans for giving additional help to persons of retirement age whose incomes are small, including both pensioners and non-pensioners.

Mr. Freeson

While thanking my right hon. Friend particularly for the last point in her reply about a study being undertaken to assist those people who are not at present in receipt and bearing n mind the hardship of a very large percentage of the number of people to whom she referred, may I ask whether she can give an assurance that the Bill to introduce an income guarantee may be expected by early next Session, bearing in mind that we have had a most welcomed increase this year which will be coming into effect in a week or so from now?

Miss Herbison

As I said in my reply, we are actively studying the best way of helping these old people. I cannot give any specific guarantee today, but the time when my hon. Friend would like it to come in is the time when I would hope it would.

Mr. Ennals

While welcoming the assurance given by my right hon. Friend to the effect that the Government will be standing by their election pledge in terms of introducing an incomes guarantee, may I ask whether there is any way in which she could bring some form of supplementary aid to this group about whom we are speaking before the legislation comes in? In view of the large number of people, as she said, who are entitled to National Assistance but who do not apply, will she consider addressing an open letter to old people drawing their attention to what they are entitled so that they may take advantage of National Assistance while it still exists?

Miss Herbison

Ever so much has already been done to try to get all old people to realise that National Assistance is there for them. I agree with my hon. Friend that we should try other ways to get these people to understand that it is there for them, and I will certainly follow up the suggestion he has made.

9. Mr. Shepherd

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if she is aware that payment of a half-rate pension to those over 75 years of age and not qualifying for retirement pension would ease the lot of many elderly people; and, in view of the relatively low cost of such provision, what consideration she will give to introducing legislation for this purpose.

33. Mr. Atkinson

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what proposals she has in regard to paying half-rate pensions to those over 75 years of age and not qualifying for retirement pension.

Miss Herbison

The cost would be substantial and, in any event, it would hardly be possible to provide a pension through National Insurance for people who have not paid the necessary contributions. I would, however, refer the hon. Gentleman to the replies I have already given to the House this afternoon.

Mr. Shepherd

When the right hon. Lady says that the cost would be substantial, does not that mean that it would be of the order of about £20 million a year? As this would be a diminishing amount, can she not give further consideration to this question and, at any rate, assure us that she will support the Bill brought forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Abingdon (Mr. Neave)?

Miss Herbison

The amount is substantial, and what I have already said is that this is a matter to which the Government are giving the most serious consideration in the introduction of our income guarantee.

Mrs. Thatcher

Will the right hon. Lady say whether the figure of £20 million or £30 million is what she means when she says that the cost will be substantial? If that is so, would she confirm that the cost would be covered by an extra contribution of, approximately, 2d. or 3d. a side?

Miss Herbison

That would be the case—the cost for half pensions is just over £20 million—but when we are considering these matters we have to take into account, first of all, the fact that our present pension scheme is a contributory one and, secondly, that quite a number of people over 75 have a very good income indeed. I think that where we are considering £20 million or £40 million or £60 million, we should be ensuring that it is used to give a decent standard of living to the old people who really need it.

38. Mr. Eric S. Heffer

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many persons 75 years old do not qualify for retirement pension; and what would be the cost of providing them with a 25 per cent., 50 per cent., or 75 percent. retirement pension, respectively.

Miss Herbison

Rather more than 300,000; and of the order of £9 million, £20 million and £30 million, respectively, in 1965–66 after taking into account the likely savings on payments by the National Assistance Board.

Mr. Heffer

Can my right hon. Friend give us some indication when the Government are likely to do something about this matter? Is she aware that there is great feeling and disquiet throughout the country about it?

Miss Herbison

Certainly. I realise the feeling, and we on this side of the House have had it for a long time. I assure my hon. Friend that it will be brought in as quickly as possible.

Mr. Tilney

Does the Minister realise that these people regard themselves as a forgotten group? Does she realise that they are dying off? Does she realise that many of them do not wish to go to the National Assistance Board?

Miss Herbison

I am sure that they regard themselves as a forgotten group. They have been forgotten for 13 years. During that time nothing was done for them.