HC Deb 15 March 1965 vol 708 cc985-93

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £24,140,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the expense of the Reserve Forces (to a number not exceeding 130,00, all ranks, including a number not exceeding 125,000 other ranks), Territorial Army (to a number not exceeding 199,000, all ranks) and Cadet Forces, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on oil the 31st day of March, 1966.

8.46 p.m.

Mr. Goodhart

We had a fairly extensive discussion of the Territorial forces in Committee on the Army Estimates last Monday. I hope that the Government have put down this Vote this evening to give themselves a chance to say something more about the future of the Territorial Army than they did on that occasion. Then, every time Ministers opened their mouths on the subject it sounded as though another 1,000 men were being sent home.

As many of my hon. Friends then pointed out, it is important that members of the Territorial Army should know as precisely as possible just what their commitments are. I therefore ask the Under-Secretary whether the Government intend to do away altogether with the proclamation procedure, which is relevant under the bounties paid under this Vote. They would be unwise to do so, because that procedure is a considerable diplomatic weapon. When, some years ago, the American Administration wished to show their determination to stand firm over Berlin they called up part of the American National Guard and sent it to Germany. We, also, might want to indicate our national determination to stand firm, by the relatively easy method of issuing a proclamation.

I notice with pleasure that the amount of money to be spent on Territorial training is to be increased this year. During recent years a great deal of such training has been handled in a most imaginative fashion, thanks largely to the efforts put into this subject by my right hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate (Mr. Ramsden). Only recently we have seen groups of Territorials returning from Aden and also Canada, where a number of Territorials have had a rigorous introduction to Arctic training. I hope that the extra sums which are being devoted to Territorial training this year will be spent in similar imaginative schemes. Perhaps the Under-Secretary can tell us something of what the Government have in mind in this respect.

All the money spent on the Vote will be wasted, however, if the review of the rôle of our reserve forces does not come up with the right answers. At the moment, we cannot ask what answers have come up because, presumably, no answers have been forthcoming as yet. We can ask what questions are to be asked, and I should like to know how sweeping the review is to be. I should like to know who is carrying it out and how soon we can expect to have a definite answer from the Committee on what the role is to be.

8.52 p.m.

Mr. Reynolds

I mentioned the Territorial Army and the review which is being carried out during the debate on Vote A, last Monday evening. I do not think that there is a great deal that I can add tonight to what I said on that occasion. The review of our defence commitments is primarily being carried by the Secretary of State for Defence in collaboration with other Ministers concerned, as our commitments cover the whole field of foreign affairs and Commonwealth relations, and a number of people are playing various parts and looking at different sections of the problem.

As I said on Monday, during the past few weeks I have visited several Territorial detachments. I was with the Queen's Surreys last Sunday at Kingston and elsewhere. I spent an afternoon with them on the ranges. I shall be visiting the 44th Parachute Brigade at the Duke of York's headquarters on Wednesday evening and I shall be visiting other units in the London area and units camping in the Dartmoor area and elsewhere during the camping season.

I am endeavouring to find out as much as possible about the Territorial Army and, as on previous occasions, I have not found any reluctance among officers and men to talk about its future. That has been the main topic of conversation among them for the last six or seven years—what its rôle will be, what equipment it shall have and other problems.

Naturally, we do not want deliberately to try to hold up decisions on the future of the Territorial Army. That is bound up with the review and the Reserve Army which will be necessary. Once we have decided on the nature of the Regular Army needed to maintain our commitments, it will be obvious to everyone that a Reserve Army will still be required. I think that the Territorial Army will play a part in that Reserve Army. I cannot say more, except to repeat that despite the shortage of equipment for the Territorial Army, for which I and my hon. and right hon. Friends cannot accept responsibility, and despite the legitimate grumbles which I hear almost every weekend, the spirit of the Territorial Army among both officers and other ranks is exceedingly fine.

8.54 p.m.

Sir H. Legge-Bourke

I wish to probe a little deeper the question of the rôle of reservists with a United Nations force. When the terms upon which many people went on to the Reserve were decided the United Nations did not exist. The Government having got approval to call up reservists to serve specifically with the United Nations forces, I wish to know whether it is possible for any reservist who does not wish to serve with a United Nations force to have the right to refuse to do so.

It seems to me that the terms of reference for many people have been changed. There are many who have an abhorrence of doing anything in the name of the United Nations and I do not see why, because they once joined the British Army and went on the Reserve, they should have to serve in a United Nations force and be called up with the reserves to do so.

8.55 p.m.

Mr. Scott-Hopkins

I should like to draw the Under-Secretary's attention to some details. Perhaps he could tell me how the amount in Vote 2, Subhead C is broken down between the Territorial and Auxiliary Forces Associations and the Cadet Forces, because this Vote is made to meet the general expenses of administration of the Territorial Army and the Reserves. There is a grant to the Cadet Forces and also a grant of £4,200 to the Council of the Territorial and Auxiliary Forces Associations. If one turns to page 85 one also sees that there are grants for the Army cadet force and the combined cadet force of £830,000 and £360,000. Why does this appear twice?

What is the difference between these? The Army Cadet Force is not a paid body. The boys in it are not paid. Therefore, this must refer to the personnel training them, the adult officers and noncommissioned officers. If that is so, it seems an astonishingly high amount—£830,000. In Subhead C we are talking about £7 million, I notice that Appendix III, to which all this refers, says that where the buildings are let—and the receipts are under Subhead Z on page 85—the Government makes a grant back under Subhead C of the 80 per cent. money they have in receipt to the Territorial association concerned with those particular premises.

I see that the actual amount under Subhead Z for which the premises have been let has gone up by £15,000. I have also heard all over the country that the amounts which the Territorial Army is now charging to other organisations in its areas have gone up in some cases by about 100, 200 or 300 per cent. This has caused great hardship to the other organisations who rent the premises from the Territorial Army or from the cadet forces. I should be grateful if the hon. Gentleman could tell me whether this is deliberate policy which will be continued by his Government of charging greatly increased amounts for the hire of these premises when they are not required by the Territorial Army, the Reserves, or the Cadet Forces. If so, could he tell us what are the total gross receipts he expects to get from these organisations? What will the increase be and why has it not gone up further from £135,000 to £150,000?

May I turn to Subhead D(3), which refers to the purchase and the rent of land and buildings? Here the sum has dropped by £10,000—from £140,000 to £130,000. I assume that the hon. Gentleman can assure us that the Army has no intentions of buying any more premises for the Territorial forces and that this is purely a question of the rents dropping. In this instance, could he tell us how it is that if there has been a drop in the cost of renting land and auxiliaries, a higher rent is charged for these buildings to the other organisations who hire them from the Territorial Army? It seems to me a strange way of doing it.

Finally, under Vote 9, last year we spent £15,000 on the Malta Territorial Army. This year we are spending nothing. This must presumably mean that it has been disbanded. Could the hon. Gentleman tell us why this has been done?

Mr. Reynolds

The hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Scott-Hopkins) asked a number of questions. Subhead D(3), deals with purchase and rent of lands and buildings. There is bound to be a certain amount of fluctuation, depending on the amount of land we buy. We do not always acquire exactly the same amount of land at exactly the same prices every year. The amount will fluctuate, depending on how much land is purchased in any one financial year. I do not think that it is fair to make any comparison between the current year and the following year to the extent of £10,000. The figure is bound to fluctuate, depending on how much we buy and the cost of each piece of land which we buy.

I was asked about the Malta Territorial Force. Malta, being a completely independent country, is assuming responsibility for that force. I cannot say what is happening to the force. The responsibility for decisions as to its future will be for the Malta Government. The hon. Member asked me for information about the subletting of Territorial Army and Army Cadet Force premises, pointing to an increase of £15,000 in the Estimate for the forthcoming year compared with that of the current year. The responsibility as to whether to let Territorial Army property to other users is entirely a matter for the County Territorial and Auxiliary Forces Association. The Association decides whether to let or not. If it decides that it will not let, that is an end of the matter. If it decides that it will let, there are certain regulations governing the way in which charges to be made for letting must be calculated.

The charge must cover the full additional cost of the letting. There is also a small percentage addition which can be made, part of which is retained by the Territorial Association, the other part being shared among units which use the drill hall concerned. There is some money which goes to the units using the drill hall and some money retained by the Territorial Association. The amount covering the cost is reflected in Subhead Z(1).

I cannot accept the hon. Member's contention that this is a complete change of policy by the present Government.

Mr. Scott-Hopkins

I did not say that.

Mr. Reynolds

The hon. Member asked me specifically whether it was future policy of the Government to increase the charges in this way. I imagine that the recent spate of reviews by county associations of the charges which they make to organisations renting drill halls was sparked off by a letter sent by the Ministry of Defence on 4th October last, 11 days before the General Election. This drew their attention to the fact that, while premises were not insured when used by Territorial Army units, because in general the Government do not insure their own property, they were not covered as far as the Ministry of Defence were concerned if the premises were used privately, and that arrangements would have to be made separately for a specific insurance to be taken out.

The letter went on to inform them that arrangements had been made by the Territorial Army Advisory Council for a special rate of insurance to be obtained, which was 5s. for each day's use irrespective of the value of the property. The letter told them how to take advantage of it. It appeared that on looking at their charges a number of associations suddenly realised that the charges which they were making were considerably below the economic charge, and they started revising the rate. This was all done before the General Election.

Mr. Scott-Hopkins

I thank the hon. Member for being so courteous in giving way and for the detail of his explanation. If it can be shown that in some areas some welfare organisations are being harshly dealt with, through no fault of their own and no fault of the Territorial Association, following this directive, will the hon. Gentleman consider giving an additional grant to that area or to that association to help over the difficulty in cases in which some organisations have not been able to hire the hall because of the increased charge?

Mr. Reynolds

I must go back to the beginning. It is for the local county association alone to elect whether to hire out premises. Any question of allowing asociations to charge rents lower than required to cover the cost would mean a reduction in the appropriation-in-aid and an increase in the Defence Vote for the subsidy, by allowing a lower rent, of voluntary organisations which by no stretch of the imagination ought to be subsidised from the Defence Vote. It may be that they ought to be subsidised from other Votes. It is possible that in some cases they can obtain subsidies from other Votes, or from local authorities. But in suggesting that an association should let at less than the cost of the letting, the hon. Member is asking for subsidies from the Defence Vote, from the Vote which we are discussing, for voluntary and other organisations which may have no connection whatever with defence. Neither my right hon. Friend nor I could accept that that should be done. Other ways would have to be found of meeting the point. I imagine that assistance could be obtained for a voluntary organisation of the right nature.

The hon. Gentleman also referred to the subject of grants to Territorial and Auxiliary Forces Associations and I agree that there is a considerable increase under this subhead. This grant is split, I believe, into 13 headings, covering the general administrative arrangements from the Territorial associations' point of view. He also referred to the two items under Subhead F, for the Army Cadet Force and Combined Cadet Force. They do cover separate things. One covers buildings and general functions while the other covers the actual organisation, training, and so on. The same applies to the Territorial Army. He will also note the items under Subheads C and D. I hope that I have answered most of his points.

Sir H. Legge-Bourke

I do not know whether the Minister intended to answer in the form of a dialogue between my hon. Friend the Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Scott-Hopkins) and himself, but I hope that he will answer the question I asked about the liabilities of reservists towards the United Nations forces.

Mr. Reynolds

I assure the hon. Gentleman that the reservists' liabilities have not altered. We are looking at the method involved here, as was announced in the Army Estimates debate and in the general defence debate, but at the moment the liability of reservists to recall is exactly the same as when we passed the Act two or three years ago. There has been no change. Once they are called up they can be used in the way decided for them, in the same way that Regular soldiers can be used, as the hon. Gentleman pointed out, for example, as part of the United Nations force in Cyprus. There has been no change in the recall position of reservists since that Act was passed, when the previous Government were in office.

Sir H. Legge-Bourke

I thank the Minister for going a long way towards answering my question, but is he able to say whether, in the event of a reservist being called up to serve in, say, a United Nations force, he would have the option to say that he did not wish to do so? Would he be relieved of his reservist obligations in that respect only?

Mr. Reynolds

If he were to say so on compassionate grounds then those matters would always be looked into, otherwise such a reservist would go to his unit in the normal way.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved, That a sum, not exceeding £24,140,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the expense of the Reserve Forces (to a number not exceeding 130,000, all ranks, including a number not exceeding 125,000 other ranks), Territorial Army (to a number not exceeding 199,000, all ranks) and Cadet Forces, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1966.