§ 24. Mr. Hefferasked the Minister of Transport if, pending an integrated transport system on Merseyside, he will take steps to subsidise the cross-river ferry service from Liverpool to New Brighton.
§ Mr. Tom FraserI do not consider that I would be justified in giving grant aid in a case like this.
§ Mr. HefferWhilst I appreciate the point made by my hon. Friend—[HON. MEMBERS: "Right hon."]—the situation—
§ Mr. HefferOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am a relative newcomer to the House, and in all my experience in the trade union and Labour movement I have never at any time experienced the sort of constant foolish, silly and sixth form interruption that hon. Gentlemen—
§ Mr. SpeakerI am being addressed on a point of order. It is therefore desirable that I should hear what it is. Would the hon. Gentleman be good enough to tell me what the point of order is?
§ Mr. HefferYes, Mr. Speaker. My point of order is this. Is it in fact permissible for hon. Gentlemen constantly to interrupt when Members are trying to make a serious point?
§ Mr. SpeakerI cannot quote the words of Erskine May off the cuff, but it is pointed out that in so large and tumultuous an assembly as the House of Commons such happenings, though strictly irregular, might sometimes occur. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would make his point.
§ Mr. Sydney Silverman rose—
§ Mr. SpeakerI think that the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Sydney Silverman) is seeking to address me on a point of order. If that is so, I wish the House would allow me to hear him. If he is not, we must get back to the Question.
§ Mr. SilvermanAs to its seriousness, you must be the judge, Mr. Speaker. This is the point of order I want to raise. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) was subjected to a whole barrage of interruptions from the other side because he inadvertently used the words "hon. Friend" instead of "right hon. Friend". Would it not be right to advise experienced Members of the House of Commons that that kind 1321 of barrage of interruption does not help the House?
§ Mr. SpeakerIt is not for me to pronounce upon the reasons for sudden interventions of this kind. I never know what inspires them. Do let us get on and have the question asked.
§ Mr. HefferThe point I was trying to make to my right hon. Friend was this. Is he aware that, whilst it is recognised on Merseyside that the local authorities are in great difficulties in relation to the running of these ferries, nevertheless they fulfil a real need, particularly for elderly people, in the summer months? It is on that basis that we would like the Minister to consider the idea of a subsidy to continue the running of these ferries.
§ Mr. FraserI appreciate my hon. Friend's concern about this ferry. As he knows, the ferry is owned by Wallasey Corporation. Although I understand that the Corporation is in difficulties with the operation of the ferry, it has in fact to seek my approval to withdraw the service. This has not yet been done, so officially I know nothing about it. In giving my hon. Friend the Answer I did, I had it in mind that the Minister has power, with Treasury approval, to make advances to a local highway authority for the maintenance of a road ferry connecting classified roads. That is the limitation of the grant aid I can make available. I am not sure that this is a case in which I could in any case give grant aid, but I may in due course have to consider a representation from the Wallasey Corporation in the matter.
§ Mr. PowellIn view of the terms of his hon. Friend's Question, would the Minister make it clear that, in his view at any rate, the integration of transport does not involve the subsidising of one form of transport by the users of another or by the public at large?
§ Mr. FraserWhat we are trying to find out in this country at present is who is subsidising whom, because nobody yet knows to what extent a good deal of road transport in this country is in fact being subsidised by the general public.