HC Deb 22 June 1965 vol 714 cc1450-2
17. Mr. Fletcher-Cooke

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why he has decided to allow Government Departments to deduct the trade union dues of public servants from their salaries or wages.

26. Mr. Braine

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what instructions have been given to Government Departments about the deduction of union contributions from wages and salaries; and whether this includes deductions designed for political purposes.

Mr. MacDermot

This facility is increasingly being given by outside employers in the interests of good staff relations. My right hon. Friend saw no reason to refuse the national staff side when it asked for it. For those associations which have a political fund, arrangements are being made to ensure that Departments shall not know the numbers or identities of members contributing to the political levy. No instructions have yet been sent to Departments because the detailed operation of the scheme has not yet been settled with the staff side.

Mr. Fletcher-Cooke

Is it not wrong for Her Majesty's Government to act as the collecting agency of a trade union in this way, and it is not wrong for them to set a bad example to private industry, increasing the scope of the American practice of the check-off which is widely discredited?

Mr. MacDermot

I do not see anything wrong in a procedure which saves time and increases efficiency. Its virtues are being recognised increasingly by the private sector of industry and by public authority employers. We are not setting an example here; we are following a lead given by others.

Mr. Randall

Can my hon. and learned Friend confirm that this practice, by which civil servants have their trade union contributions deducted from pay by the Government, was adopted during wartime? If it was, what is wrong with it being done in peace-time?

Mr. MacDermot

My hon. Friend has a great deal more knowledge than I have of what the practice in these matters was during the war, but I entirely agree with him in seeing nothing wrong in this and everything to be said for it.

Mr. Heath

If there is a difference between the dues collected from different individuals because of their contributions to the political levy, depending upon whether they contribute or not, how can the Minister in those circumstances pre- vent those in the Department who handle these matters knowing exactly who is paying and who is not?

Mr. MacDermot

I am happy to explain that. There will not be a difference in the amount of the deduction. Where there is a political contribution or political levy made, the same amount will be deducted from everyone but the arrangement come to is that the associations will be required to pay the political element in that deduction in advance to their contracted-out members who join the scheme. It will be an entirely voluntary scheme. No one will be compelled to suffer deduction unless he wants to. But the associations will, as it were, repay in advance the amount of the political levy to those who have contracted out. In this way no one will be put out of funds at all and the Department will not be in a position to know who has contracted out and who has not.

Mr. Heffer

Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that there are many different amounts and levies in trade union contributions and it would, therefore, be rather difficult for any Government Department to know precisely what was for the political levy and what was not? Second, has he noted that, although this practice is now widespread in private enterprise, we have never heard any cry from the benches opposite on that account?

Mr. MacDermot

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend's second point. As I have explained, the steps we have taken will ensure that there is no means by which Departments can know whether or not members have contracted out.