HC Deb 17 June 1965 vol 714 cc1046-58

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr Lawson.]

11.12 p.m.

The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson) rose—

Sir Charles Taylor (Eastbourne)

On a point of order. I understand that the Prime Minister is to make a statement. I understand also that he can do so only by permission of the House.

Mr. Speaker

Do not let us use up time, because it is short. It is limited to half an hour. The point is that, provided the hon. Member whose Adjournment it was consents, the Prime Minister may usurp it.

Sir C. Taylor

Further to that point of order. The statement has already been made on television, I understand.

Mr. Speaker

Do not let us use up time. The Prime Minister does not require the leave of the House in these circumstances. The fact that it has been made on television does not affect the matter.

The Prime Minister

With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement at the earliest possible moment at which in accordance with the rules of the House I can make this statement. It was, Mr. Speaker, my desire to come down to the House within five minutes of the end of the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference session this afternoon. I was not able to do that in accordance with the rules of the House, and therefore, with the indulgence of the House, I have been able to make this statement now, because I felt that it would be not convenient to make it on Friday morning, partly since the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference will be sitting at eleven o'clock when the House begins.

Sir, for several months hon. Members in all parts of the House have been deeply concerned about the situation in Vietnam, and there is, I fear, widespread agreement here that in recent weeks the position has become the more grave.

During all those months it has been the unswerving aim of Her Majesty's Government to secure a conference of all those concerned directed to bringing about an end of the fighting and to creating a permanent and honourable peace settlement. The House knows the difficulties we and others have met with in this task but, equally, the House will agree that the situation is now so potentially dangerous that it cannot be left to drift on. For reasons that the House understands, we cannot, unfortunately, in present circumstances look to the United Nations or to the Geneva Co-Chairmen to ensure the convening of such a conference.

In these circumstances, the meeting of Commonwealth Prime Ministers has today at the outset of its talks decided to take an initiative and the following communiqué has been issued this evening from Marlborough House: The meeting of Commonwealth Heads of Government began their discussion of the international situation this afternoon by considering the position in Vietnam. They were deeply concerned by the increasing gravity of the situation and the urgency of re-establishing conditions in which the people of Vietnam may be able again to live in peace. They believe that the Commonwealth, united in their desire to promote peace in the world, might make a contribution to this end by an initiative designed to bring hostilities to a speedy conclusion. They therefore resolved that a Mission composed of the leaders of some Commonwealth countries should on their behalf make contact with the Governments principally concerned with the problem of Vietnam in order to ascertain how far there may be common ground about the circumstances in which a conference might be held leading to the establishment of a just and lasting peace in Vietnam. Mr. Speaker, it has been decided by the Conference this afternoon that a mission representative of the whole Commonwealth and of all the different points of view that are held within the Commonwealth on this issue should enter into discussion to see how far common ground can be established leading to a conference. It will be my duty in due course to ask leave of the House for absence in order to lead this mission, as I am sure that it would be the desire of the whole House that every step open to us is taken to bring about peace in Vietnam.

HON. MEMBERS

Hear, hear.

Sir Alec Douglas-Home (Kinross and West Perthshire)

It is the desire of all hon. Members in every part of the House that every possible effort should be made to arrive at a political settlement of the dangerous situation in Vietnam and when the Commonwealth Prime Ministers are in conference everyone would hope and expect that they would take any action open to them to further the processes of peacemaking.

The situation in Vietnam is most difficult, complex and baffling. It is one of great danger because it could lead to an escalation to a war which would be of concern to the whole world.

We on this side of the House, therefore, hope that the contacts which the Prime Ministers will make, led by the right hon. Gentleman, will assist towards a peaceful settlement. I welcome the statement that has been made by the Prime Minister. We are grateful to him for coming to the House at the earliest possible moment.

The Prime Minister

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for what he has said. I would just say that I am sure that all of us in all parts of the House will appreciate the way in which he has responded to the statement.

Mr. J. Grimond (Orkney and Shetland)

I, too, welcome the decision of the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference and wish this expedition in the name of peace every success.

Is the Prime Minister aware that what I think is particularly significant in this decision is that it will be a multi-racial approach to the problem? The delegation will, I understand, be representative of the different Commonwealth nations in the four major continents of the world.

My I ask whether, in due course, he will inform the House as to the countries he hopes to visit and as to the further details of this delegation? He has said that he hopes to visit those countries which are principally involved in the Vietnamese war. I think that the House will want to know in due course how the details are arranged and which countries receive the delegation.

Mr. J. J. Mendelson (Penistone)

While no doubt my right hon. Friend will be aware that hon. Members who have hoped and desired that an initiative be taken by him and Her Majesty's Government will be delighted with this news and will wish him all speed and success, he will no doubt also be aware that the whole nation will be supporting him in his efforts. Without pressing him on any further detail tonight, may I therefore merely suggest that one of the earliest helpful developments, which must be in his mind, would be if the bombing operations were to cease so that there could be created an atmosphere in which work could start right away on a proper note and with the best hope of success?

Sir John Eden (Bournemouth, West)

I echo what has already been said and hope that the mission will succeed. The Prime Minister is undertaking an extremely difficult task.

At this stage, can he give the House any more information about the consultations he has already had with the United States of America which, after all, is the country particularly involved in trying to establish the conditions which may ultimately lead to a fair and just solution in that part of the world? Can he also at this stage express any hope that there may he a cessation of hostilities on the part of the Vietcong guerrilla forces which are now actively operating to the detriment of peace in that part of the world?

I hope that he will be able to give more information to the House before we are likely to have a debate. Can he give any indication of when a debate on his statement and the present Vietnam situation may take place? I know that he is busy having discussions on the Front Bench at the moment, but it would be extremely helpful if he could give some undertaking about when we may have further information about exactly what is in his mind.

Mr. Stanley Orme (Salford, West)

May I associate myself with the remarks about the Prime Minister's initiative and his visit? We are anxious that the countries which he visits should be not only those directly involved in the war, but those which may later be involved, and that his visit should include Peking, Hanoi and Washington so that he visits the major capitals concerned and holds discussions there. Will he bear in mind the difficult position of the Vietcong in Vietnam and the possibility of some negotiation in that respect?

Mr. Charles Doughty (Surrey, East)

While, of course, associating myself with the remarks already made and wishing the Prime Minister success, may I ask him when he thinks that the mission will leave this country, or whatever country it is to leave from, and whether he already knows that when he arrives in the countries he is to visit, the people of those countries will be prepared to negotiate and to talk with the mission and will not merely refuse to receive it?

Mr. William Warbey (Ashfield)

May I ask the Prime Minister to convey the congratulations of some of us to the Prime Ministers on their new, independent and imaginative initiative? May I express the hope that this grouping and this mission will, for the first time, perhaps, be in a position to put first the interests of the people of Vietnam themselves and not those of any outside Powers? If they go in that spirit and in an effort to make contact, direct and independent contact, with all the main and representative political groupings in Vietnam itself, I believe that the mission will succeed.

Mr. Eldon Griffiths (Bury St. Edmunds)

I should like to be associated with the expressions of hope that this mission will succeed—if it brings peace in Vietnam—but will the Prime Minister accept that peace at any price is not to be the object of this mission? Will he answer three precise questions which I should like to put to him? First, as to the composition of the mission: will he say whether the Prime Minister of Malaysia was given an opportunity to go and, if he was, why he was not included in the group? Would he also say whether he believes as British Prime Minister, and not simply, as in this case, leader of this Commonwealth mission that this mission is likely to achieve the policies as laid down by his right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary—namely, not merely peace but the security and freedom of South Vietnam? Although the Prime Minister has already said on television that he does not know what President Johnson's reaction will be, will he give the House an assurance that he will do his utmost to see that this country continues as far as possible to walk in step with our allies the United States?

Mr. Cohn Jackson (Brighouse and Spenborough)

Would not the Prime Minister agree that this approach is the most likely to succeed because it not only has the support of this country but works with that vital Afro-Asian group which it is very necessary to have on our side if we are to get Hanoi and the Soviet Union to co-operate with us?

Mr. Emlyn Hooson (Montgomery)

While adding my best wishes to the Prime Minister and his colleagues in this mission, may I ask that, whatever the result of the mission, a full statement will be made at the end of it? One of the most heartening things about this mission is that because of its composition it is best qualified to give an independent view on what are the true handicaps to peace in Vietnam. Whether the mission succeeds or fails, will there be a frank statement at the end of it of the conclusions reached by the Prime Ministers?

Mr. Eric S. Heffer (Liverpool, Walton)

Will the Prime Minister indicate which Governments the mission is likely to visit first? I realise that there has been no real opportunity to develop the proposals which are likely to be put forward, but are they likely to express to the American Government that one of the first things which must be done to secure peace is the stopping of the bombing of North Vietnam and bringing to a speedy conclusion the present build up of forces in South Vietnam? Thirdly, may we have an assurance that the Vietcong will be brought into any conference and any negotiations as the only real solution and possible answer to a peaceful settlement in Vietnam?

Mr. Nigel Fisher (Surbiton)

While wishing the Prime Minister well in this important Commonwealth initiative, may I ask whether he would give the House the names and countries of the Prime Ministers or Presidents who are to form part of the mission?

Mr. Philip Noel-Baker (Derby, South)

While, as the Prime Minister knows, I share some of the preoccupations which have been expressed by my hon. Friends I should like to say that I have the fullest confidence in the judgment of the Commonwealth Prime Ministers who will go on this mission to deal with all the points which have been raised from both sides of the House. In the light of some remarks which were made from the other side of the House, may I add that it has been apparent for many, many months that the continuation of the fighting could in no way promote a reasonable and sensible peace for South-East Asia?

Mr. Hector Hughes (Aberdeen, North)

The Prime Minister's announcement is a great contribution not only to the peace of the world but to the solidarity of the British Commonwealth of Nations and it is indeed an exemplification of the British philosophy of life and its adherence to the rule of law in international affairs. I congratulate the Prime Minister.

Mr. Hugh Jenkins (Putney)

Will my right hon. Friend accept that the House as a whole would not expect him tonight to go into details why this or that Prime Minister was or was not accepted or did not form part of the delegation? We should be happy to accept from my right hon. Friend tonight a broad statement, feeling that any details which have been suggested by hon. Members opposite would be inappropriate at this time.

11.30 p.m.

The Prime Minister

I can reply only by leave of the House, but so many questions have been put that I should like the opportunity to reply to them. First, I thank the Leader of the Opposition for what he said. He referred to the dangers facing Vietnam in terms of a possible escalation of the war. I think that the events of the last few days face all of us with the feeling that there is a danger of a major land war in Asia as a result of what is going on.

The dangers of escalation, however, are not the only problem. The House will have realised that there is a serious poisoning of the world atmosphere by the continuing of the Vietnam fighting. All our hopes for disarmament, of which we spoke at Question Time, all our hopes for the easing of East-West tension and the initiatives which can be taken are, I think, poisoned by the fact that the Vietnam fighting is continuing.

But there is, thirdly, a factor in the minds of hon. Members, in all parts of the House, and that is the human tragedy of this fighting. We have heard on various occasions at Question Time—and it has been difficult for me sometimes not to say what I thought about those questions—about the tragedy of some of the photographs, whether from one side or the other, and I am sure that hon. Members, in all parts of the House, would feel as I felt last week-end, when we saw some of the pictures of the tragic figures—orphans, small girls in Vietnam who had lost their parents, dead children, and so on—that if there were no other reason, there is a duty upon all of us to do everything in our power to stop this beastly war from going on.

The Leader of the Liberal Party stressed—and I welcome what he said—that this is essentially not only a multiracial Commonwealth, but a multi-racial mission. I do not think that I need explain the names of the Prime Ministers who have been suggested for this mission. The list cannot necessarily be final, because in one or two cases it is necessary to find out whether absent Prime Ministers who were not with us would be able to come with us.

The idea was that the mission, headed by myself—

Sir C. Taylor rose—

Hon. MEMBERS

Sit down!

The Prime Minister

I do not know what is wrong with the hon. Member—

Sir C. Taylor rose—

The Prime Minister

This is a serious subject. I know that the names are on the tape. There is something wrong with the hon. Member at this time of the night. If he would listen to what I said—he tried to stop me speaking at all tonight—I said that it was not profitable to go into the reasons for particular members of the Commonwealth being selected, because there is not necessarily finality about them. In one case, it is a Prime Minister who was not present this afternoon. We do not know whether he will be able to come. I hope that he will. But we need not go into invidious questions of selection. What, I think, the House wants to know is that the mission is multi-racial, that it is headed by the Prime Minister of Britain and that there are two African members, one Asian member and one West Indian member.

As to the countries to be visited, I am sure that it would be the wish of the House, as it is of the Conference, that we should secure acceptance in all the countries principally concerned—Hanoi and Saigon, Moscow, Peking and Washington. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] That is our aim.

My hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson), who, together with other hon. Members, has put many questions about this matter—they are concerned about it—raised the question of the bombing of North Vietnam. I do not want to say anything about this tonight. This is a matter that the Commonwealth Prime Ministers will be considering. It is a problem on both sides whether we can get some restraint shown in the matter of hostilities which are at present continuing to allow the mission to do its job with the maximum result.

The hon. Member for Bournemouth, West (Sir J. Eden) asked whether we had consulted the United States. The position of the Commonwealth Prime Ministers is that we felt that we had to take an initiative, that we had to present this initiative to the world and to hope that as many countries as possible would accept the initiative which we have taken. It was not right that we should consult countries in advance, for then we perhaps would not have reached agreement so quickly, but that we should decide as a Commonwealth—as representing, we believe, the whole world in this matter—and that every country would accept, as we hoped, what we are doing. If they did not, the world would form its own judgment of those who did not.

Although it is true, as the right hon. Gentleman said in a television programme which I was on just now, that I did not know what the American attitude would have been, before the programme ended one of those funny little boards which they hold up in the middle of the programme, which actually confuses one, was actually giving us the information that President Johnson has welcomed the initiative taken.

The hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) raised the question of the countries to be visited. I have never referred to that. The hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Mr. Doughty) raised the question of when this mission was taking place and also the question of who. I hope that we shall be able to leave as early in July as possible. I think that time will be required to prepare this mission properly. I hope that between now and then nothing will be done that will worsen the prospects of the very difficult work in which we are engaged.

I should like to express to my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Mr. Warbey), as to others, my appreciation of what he said.

All hon. Members in all parts of the House in their different ways, and with different interpretations, in these past few months have expressed their concern about Vietnam, and at various times I have said that I was not taking sides about these arguments because we all have different ways of expressing our desire to bring the war to an end. If there are differences among hon. Members may I say that the differences among Commonwealth Prime Ministers are no less marked. This is right and this is natural, but every one of us, I think, accepts the sincerity of every other hon. Member in wanting to see this brought to an end.

I have sometimes in these past few months had the difficult task of not saying all that we were trying to do. Now I hope it will be realised that, as I have said many times, although it would have been easy for Her Majesty's Government to express in some ringing declaration our views about this or that particular country at some moment of time, I do not believe we would have got to this situation tonight if we had satisfied our own desires for saying what we thought, and getting some perhaps rather easy plaudits, rather than biting on the steel, sometimes, and trying to get a solution. There is no one who has been through that more than my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary.

The hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths) referred to the phrase in the communiqué about a "lasting peace". I want to assure him that this is the aim of all the Commonwealth Prime Ministers. We are not out for any easy solution that would not be honourable and that would not be lasting; and I used this phrase in the statement which I made to the House 20 minutes ago. He asked whether, even though I am heading the delegation as Chairman of the Commonwealth Conference, this meant any difference in our position so far as Her Majesty's Government are concerned. I hope I have satisfied the House that the purpose of this multi-racial mission, representing all points of view in the Commonwealth, is that all points of view can now be represented. I shall be heading the mission and speaking for the mission, but every point of view which has been expressed in this House and elsewhere will be expressed on the mission.

The hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson) said that he hoped there would be a full statement to the House at the end of this mission. I hope that there will be, and I intend that there will be. It will be our duty, since we are deputed by the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference to undertake this mission, to report to the Commonwealth Prime Ministers. But in so doing I think the House can be certain that that will mean that we shall be reporting to every country, including particularly those who have sponsored this mission.

I would intend that a very full report would be made to this House. I only hope that the Rules of Procedure on that occasion will enable me to make it to the House before it is made on television. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) asked which Government we should see first. We have to work this out. There are some very difficult complications about the organisation of this, as to which country should be seen first, and we have set up a working party to work out some of the details.

I should like, finally, Mr. Speaker, to thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mr. Philip Noel-Baker), who has played a very active and restrained part in this question, for what he has said to us tonight.

I agree with what was said by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes). This is, I believe, an important step in the direction of world peace. None of us here will underrate the tremendous difficulties in reaching a solution. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition was absolutely realistic about this. The odds are terribly high so far as the difficulties are concerned. One thing, I hope, we shall have done. We shall have established the united desire of the Commonwealth to secure peace in Vietnam. Another thing we shall have done—we shall have asserted—we have already asserted—the rôle of the Commonwealth in the world by the statements we have made. I could have wished—I am sure that the whole House could have wished—that there could have been some other body able to take this step. Last week my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary was in touch with the United Nations to see whether in present circumstances it would not be possible to take an initiative there which perhaps would have led to a mission of this kind.

My right hon. Friend has been active, as the House knows, with his fellow co-Chairman, who has not yet felt able to associate himself with us in an initiative. Where it has not been possible for these bodies to be activated as we would have liked them to be it was fortunate—some perhaps would say providential—that the Commonwealth Prime Ministers happened to be meeting at this time, and in meeting represented the whole world in miniature, in microcosm as we think, because this is the great pride which all of us have in the Commonwealth.

Despite our differences on analyses of the cause, despite arguments which could have taken us to Christmas about the rights of it in Vietnam, it was because there was a united desire that we should proceed with an initiative for peace that I have been able to make this statement to the House tonight. I do not want to raise hopes too high. I do not think that any hon. Member has excessive hope of what can be achieved. It may be that we shall be rebuffed. It may be that one country or another will refuse to receive us. I hope not. It may be that some countries who receive us will be so negative and so intransigent that we shall not be able to secure conditions for a conference that will lead to a just, honourable and lasting peace.

I hope that these things will not be true, but even if they are I believe it better to have tried and failed than at this historic, critical moment for us not to have made the effort.

The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at eighteen minutes to Twelve o'clock.