HC Deb 16 June 1965 vol 714 cc448-52

Motion made, and Question proposed, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty as follows: Most Gracious Sovereign, We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled, humbly beg leave to offer to Your Majesty our sincere thanks for the reference to the seven hundredth anniversary of Parliament in the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty made to both Houses at the first meeting of this present Parliament. It is fitting that the English Parliament summoned by King Henry III at the instance of Simon de Montfort, Earl of Leicester, and Steward of England, to meet in London on 20th January, 1265, should be especially recorded. It was the first known English Parliament to which representatives of the citizens and burgesses were summoned, in addition to Prelates, Lay Magnates and Knights of the Shire. There were thus present for the first time in Parliament the chosen representatives of the Communities of England—the shires, cities and boroughs—who were in later generations to constitute the House of Commons. We rejoice that the principles of parliamentary government have been developed and strengthened through seven centuries of history. We rejoice, moreover, that they have been established in many countries which recognise Your Majesty as Head of the Commonwealth. It is with special pleasure that we express our thanks to Your Majesty for the arrangements which have enabled us to welcome the Speakers and Presiding Officers of so many Parliaments in the Commonwealth among us on this occasion. We humbly thank Your Majesty for this opportunity to celebrate the origin and development of this institution, the Crown in Parliament, which is the foundation of our liberties under the rule of law, and trust that with God's help it may ever be preserved.—[Mr. Bowden.]

Mr. Speaker

The Question isߞߞ

Mr. Rankin

On a point of orderߞ—

Mr. Speaker

Not while I am putting the Question.

Question put and agreed to, nemine contradicente.

Mr. Rankin

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I direct your attention to the fact that, once again, Question No. 35, standing in my name, has not been reached. I may say that it has stood in my name for quite a long while. I regret that my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council seems to have been muzzled on this matter. May I ask whether it is possible for the Lord President of the Council to be heard for the second time in this Parliament by replying to Question No. 35?

[35. Mr. RANKIN: To ask the Lord President of the Council if the founding of Scotland's Parliament 600 years ago will be comprehended in the celebrations of 700 years of Great Britain's Parliament.]

Mr. Speaker

I am afraid not. There is no machinery by which it can be done. Nor—

Mr. Rankin

Further to my point of order—

Mr. Speaker

Order. Nor did I frustrate any wishes of the hon. Member in any way when I refused to hear his point of order while I was putting the Question, because what he wished could not have been done at any time after 3.30.

Mr. Rankin

Further to my point of order, and ignoring my complete frustration, perhaps I may point out that by next Wednesday this Question will not matter one iota, as the occasion for its appearance on the Order Paper will have passed. This is a matter of extreme importance to many of us on both sides of the House in regard to an occasion of this nature which we all want to join in celebrating. All I ask is that Scotland may join in that celebration in an appropriate fashion. I therefore appeal to you, Sir, on the ground that this is a special occasion which may not occur again, that you might give the Lord President of the Council the opportunity to reply to this Question.

Mr. Speaker

I share, with respect, all the hon. Gentleman's enthusiasms, but they do not alter my powers. I do not have any power to do this; I am sorry.

Mr. Baxter

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. This matter is rather important from the Scottish point of view. We have not had an opportunity to express our point of view on this very important subject, and I do not think that it is becoming to the House of Commons that it should be so. We have been asked to celebrate a very important event—

Mr. Speaker

No point of order arises about that now. I would do anything I could to assist the hon. Gentleman, but I cannot. I do not have the power. I must not get involved.

Mr. Baxter

Perhaps you will give me your indulgence, Mr. Speaker, and your guidance, if I may say so. I should like to know how we can raise a matter that is of some public importance, especially to the people of Scotland. I would ask you to advise the House, and myself in particular—along with my hon. Friends—as to the proper method of getting an explanation of how celebrations relating to the seven hundredth anniversary of the British Parliament are taking place when this cannot be so in fact. Can you tell us how I can go about getting this point clarified?

Mr. Speaker

I can help the hon. Gentleman on the procedural matters. If he wants to know that, presumably he could put down a Motion to cause it to be discussed, and ask for time. But I cannot help him about the factual matters; they are not within my province.

Sir Knox Cunningham

Will you rule, Mr. Speaker, that on Tuesday we celebrate the United Kingdom Parliament, and that the greater includes the less?

Mr. Speaker

No, I do not rule about it at all in any way. It does not arise.

Resolved, That the said Address be presented to Her Majesty by the whole House.—[Mr. Bowden.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, That such Members of this House as are of Her Majesty's Most Honourable Privy Council do humbly know Her Majesty's Pleasure when She will be attended by this House with the said Address and whether Her Majesty will be Graciously pleased to permit the invited representatives of overseas Parliaments of the British Commonwealth to accompany this House in attending Her Majesty.—[M r. Bowden.]

Mr. Emrys Hughes

Is my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House aware that, in his time, Simon de Montfort was regarded as a dangerous Left-wing revolutionary; that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition still has certain suspicions about him; and that if he were to come back he would be punished by being put on the Scottish Grand Committee?

Mr. Rankin

Would it be in order for me, Mr. Speaker, to ask my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council whether he will extend the celebrations that are to be undertaken next week from 22nd and 23rd June to 24th June—

Mr. Speaker

No, that would not be in order on this Question. The Question is the Question I have just read.

Mr. David Steel

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is this Motion now open for discussion?

Mr. Speaker

Yes, but only such matters as are of relevance to the Motion.

Mr. Steel

I wondered whether the Lord President of the Council could inform the House whether he is aware of the judgment given by Lord Cooper in the case of MacCormick v. the Lord Advocate, in 1953, that "the Union legislation", namely, the Act of Union of 1707, "extinguished the Parliaments of England and Scotland and replaced them by a new Parliament", the one in which we are now sitting?

Mr. Speaker

Order. With due respect to the judgment in question, I do not quite follow its relevance to this matter of members of the Privy Council attending to find out Her Majesty's pleasure.

Mr. Rankin

May I suggest, Mr. Speaker—

Mr. Speaker

If the hon. Gentleman wishes to speak again, he is required to ask the leave of the House.

Mr. Rankin rose—

Hon. Members

No.

Mr. Rankin

I thought—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] If I may seek leave to do so—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—I was about to say—

Hon. Members

No.

Mr. Speaker

I am sorry, but it would appear from some sounds which approach my ear that the hon. Gentleman does not have leave to speak again.

Mr. Rankin

But, Mr. Speaker, may I suggest—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—that that does not bother me in the least? I am asking—

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member cannot make suggestions, because he cannot get leave to speak again.

Mr. Rankin

I have not spoken at all yet.

Mr. George Y. Mackie

On a point of order. Is it not relevant that we should discuss the accuracy of the date of the celebrations on which we are presenting an humble Address to Her Majesty?

Mr. Speaker

Not on this Question, so far as I can see.

Question put and agreed to.

Ordered, That such Members of this House as are of Her Majesty's Most Honourable Privy Council do humbly know Her Majesty's Pleasure when She will be attended by this House with the said Address and whether Her Majesty will be Graciously pleased to permit the invited representatives of overseas Parliaments of the British Commonwealth to accompany this House in attending Her Majesty.