HC Deb 21 July 1965 vol 716 cc1551-3
5. Mr. William Hamilton

asked the Secretary of State for Defence whether he has yet come to a decision on whether to buy a replacement for the TSR2; and if he will make a statement.

17. Sir J. Eden

asked the Secretary of State for Defence whether he has now decided to take up the option on the F111A; and if he will make a statement.

29. Mr. Marten

asked the Secretary of State for Defence if he will now give an overall estimate of the cost of replacing the TSR2 by the F111.

Mr. Healey

No decision has yet been taken to buy the F111A or on the numbers of this type which might be needed if it were chosen to meet the Royal Air Force's long-range strike/reconnaissance requirement. I have therefore nothing to add to the assessment previously given to the House, which remains valid, that for a full order the savings would be at least £300 million and that for a smaller order they would be proportionately and absolutely greater.

Mr. Hamilton

Can my right hon. Friend say whether there has been any escalation since the option was announced in the costs of the F111A? Does he accept the principle, enunciated by the Leader of the Opposition yesterday, that we should allow the costs of defence to escalate irrespective of our capacity to pay? Has my right hon. Friend entered into consultation with the French to see whether we can buy a French rather than an American replacement for the TSR2?

Mr. Healey

I am assured that the development of the F111A is going according to plan as regards both costs and performance. I can assure my hon. Friend that the Government have every intention of trimming our defence costs according to our economic cloth and, above all, to get better value for money in defence. We are, of course, looking at every possible replacement for the Canberra, but we shall not be able to take a decision on which is the most suitable until the defence review has made further progress and we are clearer as to the precise performance required of the replacement.

Sir J. Eden

To dispel any element of uncertainty which may exist in the minds of those who are now serving in the Royal Air Force, would the right hon. Gentleman confirm that it is his definite intention to bring into service in the near future some form of strategic strike aircraft?

Mr. Healey

I should, perhaps, first point out that many of the doubts which exist in the minds of some people who are now in the R.A.F. have been deliberately fostered by persons who are hostile to the policies and conduct of Her Majesty's Government. On the question of a long-range strike aircraft, I have no reason to doubt that the R.A.F. will require an aircraft of long-range with a strike capability.

Mr. Marten

Is it not true that the final bill for the compensation in respect of the TSR2 will not be known for about another two years? In that event, could the Minister give an assurance that at the end of the day we will be given a balance sheet to justify the figures which he gave earlier?

Mr. Healey

Yes, Sir. Her Majesty's Government have every interest in publishing the most detailed figures possible and to reveal the inadequacies of the previous Government's programme and the superiority of our own. I therefore assure the hon. Gentleman that we will do what he asks.

Mr. Soames

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that since we have been denied the figures of the costs of replacing the P1154 and the HS681 we are indeed glad to hear that we will be given more figures about the TSR2 and the F111? In view of the right hon. Gentleman's reply to his hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) about the defence review as a whole and his remarks about cutting our defence expenditure to meet our economic cloth, will he aver that he has every intention of ensuring that our defence forces will be able to fulfil whatever commitments are essential in the interests of this country?

Mr. Healey

Yes, Sir. I have stated on many occasions in the House that as long as I am Secretary of State for Defence I will make it my duty to see that Her Majesty's Forces have all the equipment that is necessary to them to perform the tasks allotted to them by the Government.

Mr. Goodhew

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that while he stated that he must assess the precise performance requirement for a Canberra replacement, in fact that has already been done by the R.A.F., which asked for the TSR2? Would he say what change there has been in this precise requirement, if we are now going to have something instead of the TSR2, if at all?

Mr. Healey

The performance characteristics of an aircraft depend primarily on who is the likely enemy, what is the likely state of his defences and what are the targets to which there might be a requirement to penetrate when the aircraft is in service. This is a matter of judgment on which judgment is likely to differ from year to year under any Government, whether or not there is a change of Government. One of the major differences since the last election is that the requirement for a long-range strike aircraft for a strategic nuclear rôle is no longer accepted by Her Majesty's Government so far as the Soviet Union is concerned.