Territorial Army (Hansard, 21 July 1965)

§ 1 and 2. Mr. Hamling
asked the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what is the present strength of the Territorial Army, in officers and other ranks; how many units are below establishment; and whether he is satisfied that the present strength of the Territorial Army is sufficient to fulfil its future rôle;

§ 40. Mr. Dempsey
asked the Secretary of State for Defence if he is aware of the importance of the Territorial Army; and if he will arrange for it to be more closely attuned to military conditions today.

§ 51. Mr. Shinwell
asked the Secretary of State for Defence what proposals are under consideration for the reorganisation of the Territorial and auxiliary forces.

§ 54. Mr. Goodhart
asked the Secretary of State for Defence what steps he is taking to reduce expenditure on the Territorial Army.

§ The Deputy Secretary of State for Defence and Minister of Defence for the Army (Mr. Frederick Mulley)
At 31st May there were 9,022 officers and 99,741 other ranks in the Territorial Army. Units are not recruited up to establishment because since the last reorganisation volunteer recruitment has been limited to 123,000 all ranks, which is about 65 per cent. of the total establishment of 190,000. The 1546 attributable cost of the Territorial Army was £31 million in 1962–63, £34 million in 1963–64 and £35 million in 1964–65, but no estimate is available for the years before 1962–63. I fully recognise the valuable contribution made by the Territorial Army. Its future rôle and organisation are under review and I cannot at present say what the outcome of this review will be.

§ Mr. Hamling
Will my right hon. Friend agree that in the conditions of modern warfare the present rôle of the Territorial Army does not fit modern requirements? Is this one of the topics which is in his mind in the defence review?

§ Mr. Mulley
In the review which is in progress we are trying to take account of all these factors, including the one mentioned by my hon. Friend.

§ Mr. Dempsey
Would the Deputy Secretary of State bear in mind that the Territorial Army is the first line of defence in the event of a national emergency? Although there is an argument in favour of reorganisation, would he also try to bear in mind the extraordinary voluntary service given by members of that body towards training during the civilian period? Would he try also to remember, when reviewing the future of the Territorial Army, that this is a measure of discipline for civilians who are interested in the defence of the country when he is reviewing the future of the Territorial Army?

§ Mr. Mulley
My hon. Friend will not expect me to anticipate today the statement which we hope to make later. All these factors will be taken into account. I should like to say how much I endorse what he said about the importance of the voluntary spirit and service given by members of the Territorial Army over previous years. We recognise that in the future, no matter what reorganisation or changes there may be, we shall be just as dependent on the good will and voluntary spirit of service which have been the characteristics of the Territorial Army over previous years.

§ Mr. Goodhart
Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that if a reduction of any sort is contemplated in the manpower ceilings for the Regular forces strong reserve forces will be even more 1547 important? Will he bear in mind that it will be difficult to get the volunteers which are necessary if there is a wholesale slash of the units and associations which have commanded so much loyalty and affection in the past? Could he say definitely whether there will be a statement on the future of the Army before the Recess?

§ Mr. Mulley
We are fully aware of the importance of trying to make a statement at the earliest possible moment. If at all possible, we shall try to do so before the House rises for the Recess. I would ask the hon. Member not to anticipate that the changes which we may wish to bring forward will be of the catastrophic character which he indicated in his Question.

§ Mr. Shinwell
Is my right hon. Friend aware that this matter of the Territorial and Auxiliary Forces and the general reserve issue is of primary importance? Can we have an assurance from my hon. Friend that, before the Government come to a final decision, they will consult interested parties in the House?

§ Mr. Mulley
As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have said on a number of occasions, we want to consult all persons interested as fully as possible and I have already undertaken to consult the Territorial Council and the associations fully on the details of any changes proposed. But we have also given an assurance that the first statement of the Government's intentions will be made in this House and that, of course, inhibits the circle of consultation that can be undertaken ahead of such a statement on the principles of the Government's policy.

§ Mr. Soames
Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance—I understand that he intends to take this course—that he will hold discussions with the Territorial Council and the associations before he makes a final statement to the House?

§ Mr. Mulley
The consultations we have with the Council will depend to some extent on the wishes of the Council. The right hon. Gentleman will recall that he himself made a statement in July, 1960, and produced the resultant White Paper in the following November. We 1548 expect a similar period to elapse while the details are worked out.

§ Sir Richard Glyn
Will the right hon. Gentleman take this opportunity to repudiate the story, to which his attention has been drawn and which was given considerable publicity in the Press some time ago, to the effect that the Territorial Army was to be disbanded?

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. That goes beyond the range of Ministerial responsibility.

§ Mr. Kershaw
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the House will have heard with some relief his sympathetic references to volunteer forces? Is he aware that the longer his decision is put off the worse it will be for recruiting for the present Territorial Army?

§ Mr. Mulley
We are, of course, concerned about the speculation in the Press and the uncertainty to which this gives rise, but the hon. Gentleman will agree that this is a complicated and difficult question. It would not have been the wish of the House that we should rush the matter and come up with an ill-conceived scheme. The few months that we have been engaged on the review so far were necessary for any Government to come forward with a set of proposals for a reserve army to meet existing conditions.