§ Mr. ThorntonI beg to move Amendment No. 33, Clause 14, in page 12, line 39 leave out:
to which this section applies".1730 I suggest that it would be for the convenience of the House to take Amendments Nos. 33, 34 and 35 together.
§ Mr. ThorntonThese are minor Amendments which will remove a possible ambiguity in the wording of the Clause.
It has always been our intention in the regulations which will be made under the Clause to allow employers to offset against a redundancy payment only occupational pensions which become payable on or shortly after redundancy. The Amendments relate to the situation where a pension is payable shortly after redundancy—for example, where a man becomes redundant at age 59½ and his pension will start to be paid six months later when he is 60. As the Bill stands, the last few lines of Clause 14(1) read:
which is to be paid at, or at a time determined by reference to, the time when he ceases to be employed by an employer".I am advised that that wording will not necessarily make it clear that the time within which a pension must be paid in order to count for offset will be whatever time is laid down in the regulations. There is a possibility that it could be held to mean that the time limit should be laid down in the pension scheme itself. Of course, pensions schemes do not lay down that pensions must be payable within a given time after the employee leaves the employment. They relate them to the time of retirement or to the attainment of a specified age. We want to remove this ambiguity. The Amendment will make it clear that to count for offset a pension must be paid within such time after redundancy as prescribed by the regulations.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Further Amendments made: In page 12, line 41, leave out "(2) This section applies to" and insert "being".
§
In page 13, line 2, leave out from "paid" to end of line 4 and insert:
by reference to his employment by a particular employer and is to be paid, or to begin to be paid, at the time when he leaves that employment or within such period thereafter as may be prescribed by the regulations".—[Mr. Thornton.]
§ Mr. ThorntonI beg to move Amendment No. 36, Clause 14, in page 13, line 12, at the end to insert:
(4) In relation to any case where, under any provision contained in this Part of this Act, a tribunal determines that an employer is liable to pay part (but not the whole) of a redundancy payment, any reference in this section to a redundancy payment, or to the amount of a redundancy payment, shall be construed as a reference to that part of the redundancy payment, or to the amount of that part, as the case may be.It will be convenient to the House to take at the same time Amendments Nos. 92 and 96.
Mr. Deputy-SpeakerMay I again protest on behalf of the Chair? It is a great help to the Chair—I say this to the Parliamentary Secretary and, through him, to other hon. Members on the Front Bench—if the Chair knows in advance which Amendments are to be taken together. The duty of the Chair is to protect the interests of hon. Members who may be badly affected by a grouping of Amendments. This is a general criticism and not a personal criticism of the hon. Gentleman.
§ Mr. ThorntonThese three Amendments all deal with a situation in which a redundancy payment may be reduced in accordance with regulations to be made under Clause 14 because the worker concerned is also receiving a pension or superannuation payment. They are all purely technical in nature.
The Amendment to Schedule 1 simply states explicitly that the various calculations to be made under the Schedule in order to determine the amount of a redundancy payment shall not prejudice the operation of regulations under Clause 14 relating to pensions. It makes it clear that while the amount of the redundancy payment in any particular case must be worked out in accordance with the rules in the Schedules, once the amount has been worked out it may still be subject to reduction by virtue of regulations under Clause 14. This simply makes quite clear what has always been the Government's intention.
The Amendments to Clause 14 and Schedule 4 are concerned with the operation of regulations about pensions under Clause 14 in cases in which a tribunal has awarded a worker part of a payment which would otherwise have been due to 1732 him. There are a few places in the Bill where tribunals are given this power and it is necessary to be clear how the pension regulations would operate in these cases.
The Amendment to Clause 14 makes it clear that if a tribunal awards only part of a payment any reduction which may be made under regulation on account of the pension is to apply to the amount of the part award just as it would have applied to the whole pension. The Amendment to Schedule 4 relates to the calculation of rebate to an employer in a case in which the redundancy payment has been reduced because of the pension. The Amendment ensures that the paragraph covers the case in which there is both a part award by a tribunal and a reduction on account of the pension.
§ Amendment agreed to.