§ 7. Mr. Julius Silvermanasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether she will take steps to provide special assistance through the National Assistance Board for the extra cost of fuel and electricity in smokeless zones.
§ Mr. PentlandWhere a person receiving assistance is necessarily involved in extra expense because he has to use smokeless fuel or electricity the National Assistance Board is prepared to consider helping with the extra cost.
§ Mr. SilvermanWhile I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him whether he will bear in mind that considerable expense in increased cost of electricity is very common where coal and other forms of fuel cannot be used? Would it not be useful to issue a general directive in this respect? Also, can my hon. Friend give publicity to the fact that old-age pensioners and people on National Assistance can apply for this form of assistance?
§ Mr. PentlandYes, Sir. We do our utmost to publicise the discretionary powers that are allowed to the National Assistance Board, and these powers take into consideration allowances for extra heat and fuel in old-age pensioners' households. Where a person has to rely on electricity alone for heating, the cost is appreciably more than that for heating by solid fuel, but the Board is normally prepared to make special provision to meet the extra cost.
§ Mr. Alfred MorrisI am sure that my hon. Friend would agree that the cost 8 of smokeless fuels in smokeless zones is causing very serious hardship among elderly people. [HON. MEMBERS: "Ask a question."] I speak with some feeling about this, representing a constituency—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerCan the hon. Gentleman frame that in the form of a question? This is Question Time. If he can put it into the form of a question, it will be in order.
§ Mr. MorrisI would say this—[Interruption.] On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I think that the right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg) should cease grunting when he addresses the Chair.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I did not note any grunts. I was only inviting the hon. Member to ask a question now, because the rules require it.
§ Mr. MorrisThe question is: Will my hon. Friend seek to ask the National Assistance Board to treat the claims for additional assistance for smokeless fuel far more generously?
§ Mr. PentlandAs I have already indicated, the Board is very conscious of the difficulties which may arise when retirement pensioners change over to the use of smokeless fuels. As I have said, everything possible is done to publicise the help which they can get. If my hon. Friend has any particular difficulties in his constituency, I shall be glad to look into them.
§ 11. Mr. Higginsasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what steps she is taking to ensure that old-age non-pensioners are included in the inquiry into the circumstances of those entitled to National Assistance who have not applied for it.
§ Miss HerbisonI am afraid it was not practicable to include non-pensioners in the inquiry into the circumstances of retirement pensioners which has just been carried out. There is no effective way of taking a sample of this relatively small group of elderly people, most of whom do not appear on official records of any kind. This does not mean that they are being, or will be, overlooked in our review of the social security provisions for old people.
§ Mr. HigginsIs the right hon. Lady aware that this is a totally unsatisfactory Answer? Old-age non-pensioners above all others should be included in the survey, because they receive no State pension. Will the right hon. Lady take steps to ensure that they are included in the sample survey, because there is no statistical reason why they should not?
§ Miss HerbisonIt was possible to obtain a very good random sample of pensioners from our records covering over 6 million pensioners, but it was impossible to have an effective sample of this much smaller group of non-pensioners, for whom no official records are kept. I understand the hon. Gentleman's worry about non-pensioners but the important point to remember is that the sample of retirement pensioners, which includes many pensioners with no more to live on than non-pensioners, should give us valuable information also about non-pensioners.
The information we are getting from the survey will help us both with the non-pensioners and the pensioners alike. It seems to me that the important thing to find out is why they are not applying to the National Assistance Board and what we can do to help them to apply.
§ Mr. HigginsIn view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment.
§ 12. Mr. Benceasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many people are in receipt of National Assistance in the Burgh of Kirkintilloch; and what is the average amount paid.
§ Mr. PentlandSeparate figures are not available for the Burgh of Kirkintilloch; this forms only a small part of the total area covered by the Glasgow (Springburn) National. Assistance Board's office, in which 5,549 weekly National Assistance allowances were current at the end of May, 1965. Some of the allowances included the needs of more than one person. Information about the average amount paid in particular localities is not available; the figure for Great Britain as a whole was 44s., and for Scotland it was 47s. 5d.
§ Mr. BenceIs my hon. Friend aware that, in this burgh and many others where there are overspill agreements with the City of Glasgow, the burden of rates on retired people is becoming intolerable? For 12 years the situation has been getting worse and worse. Will my hon. Friend, pending reform of the techniques of financing local government expenditure, consult his right hon. Friend to see if measures can be taken to relieve retired people from this very heavy burden?
§ Mr. PentlandYes, Sir.
§ 13. Mr. Benceasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many people are on National Assistance in the Burgh of Clydebank; and what is the average amount in National Assistance being paid to each retirement pensioner.
§ Mr. PentlandSeparate figures are not available for the Burgh of Clydebank; this forms part of the total area covered by the National Assistance Board's Clydebank official, in which there were 4,462 weekly National Assistance allowances current at the end of May, 1965. Some of the allowances included the requirements of more than one person.
Information about the average amount of National Assistance paid to retirement pensioners in particular localities is not available, but for Scotland as a whole it is 20s. 3d.
§ Mr. BenceIs my hon. Friend aware that Clydebank, an almost entirely industrial burgh, has 4,000 retirement pensioners receiving National Assistance? Is not this evidence that the retirement pension is still inadequate for modern conditions? Is he further aware that we hope that, as early as possible, a new social security scheme will be brought in so that retired people, particularly in an industrial burgh like Clydebank, where the men and women have worked hard all their lives, receive pensions adequate to their needs without their having recourse to the National Assistance Board?
§ Mr. PentlandI agree with my hon. Friend. That is our objective.
§ 18. Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what recent representations she 11 has received from the National Assistance Board on the desirability of increasing the amounts of the disregards taken into account when assessing needs of applicants.
§ Miss HerbisonNone. I would refer my hon. Friend to the Answer which I gave to the hon. Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins) on 22nd March.
§ Mr. HamiltonHas my right hon. Friend recognised that the changes in the disregards have not kept pace with the declining purchasing power of money since 1946, including the 13 years of the Tory Government? Can she tell me why there is still a distinction between capital assets such as War Savings and others which are not so regarded? Should not this antiquated concept be brought up to date?
§ Miss HerbisonIt is generally accepted that this is a concept which should not continued for any longer than is possible. We are examining the whole subject of disregards in connection with the income guarantee and the general review, but at present we have no statement to make about what will be the ultimate results of that review.
§ Mrs. ThatcherDo I understand from what the right hon. Lady has said that the Government intend to keep the concept of disregards in the income guarantee system?
§ Miss HerbisonCertainly we do.
§ 24. Mr. Jacksonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many persons are today in receipt of National Assistance; of this total how many are old-age pensioners; how many are in receipt of sickness benefit; and how many are able-bodied unemployed.
§ Mr. PentlandAt the end of March, 1965, there were 1,958,670 weekly National Assistance allowances in payment. Of this total, 1,260,707 were old-age pensioners—including 58,292 noncontributory old-age pensioners and 41,977 widows over the age of 60 but still in receipt of a widows' pension—144,061 were in receipt of sickness benefit; and 121,393 were registered as unemployed. Some of the allowances included the needs of more than one person.
§ Mr. JacksonCould my hon. Friend, in his various circulars through the Ministry of Pensions, make it clear that the percentage of those receiving National Assistance who are able-bodied unemployed is relatively small, because there seems to be a general feeling that some persons who are unemployed are in receipt of National Assistance which they should not have?
§ Mr. PentlandMy hon. Friend is quite correct. We try to make those distinctions whenever we possibly can.
§ 25. Mr. Julius Silvermanasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance, in view of the increasing burden of rent and rates on elderly people with small incomes, what steps the National Assistance Board are taking to overcome the reluctance some of them feel about applying for assistance.
§ 27. Mr. McBrideasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what action she is taking to encourage old people to apply for the National Assistance allowances to which they are entitled.
§ 28. Mr. Ennalsasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what methods she intends to use to make more widely known the help which the National Assistance Board can give to old people in need.
§ Miss HerbisonAs hon. Members are aware, the Board has done a great deal in recent years to explain to elderly people their rights under the National Assistance Acts and to dispel doubts and misconceptions from their minds. I have been in consultation with the Board about possible further steps which might be taken and we shall, in a number of ways, be making renewed efforts to overcome reluctance where it still exists. I have today written to all newspaper editors asking them to publish an open letter urging elderly people who may be entitled to assistance to approach the National Assistance Board, and asking other people who have elderly relatives or friends in this position to persuade them to apply. The broadcasting authorities are being asked to co-operate by providing television and radio facilities. The Chairman of the National Assistance Board is writing to seek the support of local authorities, churches and voluntary 13 bodies generally in distributing my open letter in leaflet form, and in encouraging old people to apply for assistance. A new leaflet is being prepared, to be entitled "Twenty Questions", which will deal with the main causes of misunderstanding about National Assistance: this leaflet will be given to all retirement pensioners in September. New posters are also being produced for use in post offices and old people's clubs.
§ Mr. SilvermanI am very grateful to the Minister for the steps which she has announced. Will she emphasise in any approaches to these people that National Assistance is a social right and not a charity, and that any old person can apply for National Assistance without any form of humiliation whatsoever?
§ Miss HerbisonIn the letter which I have sent I stressed that this is a right for old people, and I hope that that will help to overcome some of the hesitation.
§ Mr. McBrideIs my right hon. Friend aware that this will give great satisfaction throughout the country? Is she further aware that it will help to persuade innumerable old people to apply for National Assistance to which they are entitled. Will she agree that her information today is in direct contrast to that published by the previous Government, which is why they were rejected in 1964?
§ Miss HerbisonI am hoping that these further efforts at publicity will result in more and more old people, who are entitled to National Assistance, applying for it. In all fairness to the Board—because this is a question of co-operation between the Board and the Government—the Board has from time to time made real efforts to get old people to apply.
§ Mr. EnnalsWill my right hon. Friend accept our congratulations on her imaginative approach and particularly on her willingness to make full use of the voluntary organisations and old people's welfare committees which are doing so much good work? She will have our support in anything that she does to remove the stigma of charity from National Assistance. Finally, in her review, would she consider changing the name of the National Assistance Board?
§ Miss HerbisonWe have made it clear that we will set up a Ministry of Social 14 Security. It is at that time that I hope that the name "National Assistance", which, unfortunately, seems to have a stigma attached to it for some old people, will disappear. I am asking for the help of every hon. Member, on whatever side of the House he may sit, to get those old people to apply for assistance.
§ Mr. David SteelIs it the case that these provisions are in the nature of interim provisions? Is it part of the Government's policy to maintain National Assistance, whether under this name or not, as part of the social security system? Surely it is the Government's policy to try to minimise recourse to National Assistance.
§ Miss HerbisonOf course that is our policy. We hope that with the introduction of earnings-related pensions, short-term benefits and the introduction of a proper graduated pension scheme there will be fewer people who need help outside a contributory system. But there will always be some people who are outside the contributory system, no matter how good it is. We want to ensure that these people have no hesitation, even in future, in getting the social security which will be theirs by right.