HC Deb 06 July 1965 vol 715 cc1537-58

The rate of tax payable by a unit trust or by an investment trust approved by the Board for the purposes of sections 34 and 63 of this Act on any chargeable grant accruing in any accounting period (as calculated in accordance with section 51 of this Act) shall not exceed that payable in that period by an individual under section 19(3) of this Act.—[Mr. Peter Walker.]

Mr. Peter Walker

I beg to move, That the Clause be read a Second time.

New Clause No. 43 is a Clause of fundamental importance to unit and investment trusts. The arguments involved are those concerned with seeing that the individual investor investing in both unit trusts and investment trusts does enjoy a position similar to what he would have enjoyed if he had been an individual investor. I hope that in considering this Clause the Government will have been able to reflect in the period between the Committee stage and Report stage of the Bill, exactly how important the investment and unit trust movements are.

On the investment trust movement, it has already been mentioned in the Committee stage that about £3,000 million are invested through the media of investment trusts. It is also known what a widespread movement the unit trust movement is. I have a connection with the unit trust movement through its rebirth after the war. Together with one of my right hon. Friends, we started the first unit trust after the war. As far as this new Clause and other Amendments are concerned, I would say that I would in no way benefit from them going through.

Both sides of the House have come to recognise what an important movement this has become, and we have seen in recent years the trade union movement take an interest in this form of investment. We have seen the party opposite even talk about the possibility of a national unit trust as a medium to encourage savings. From the point of view of the Chancellor's economic policy, there is no period when it has been more important to encourage savings than at present. I am sure that the Chancellor must at this time be very concerned at recent figures of National Savings. I am sure that he must show some concern at savings in the form of private investment, such as investment and unit trusts. The House will be disturbed to know that unit trust sales, during the first five months of this year, have been 25 per cent. lower than in the similar five months last year. This is the first period for many years, certainly since, I think, 1957, in which there has been this drop in sales of this type of investment.

From the Chancellor's point of view it possibly means that people with the higher earnings and higher incomes that they are enjoying at present, instead of saving are spending and this does put an unwelcome inflationary pressure upon the economy which I am certain the Chancellor would not like to see at present. Therefore, the criticism of this side of the House has constantly been that this Finance Bill rather than encouraging saving has been an actual deterrent to saving.

There is no sphere where this is more obvious than investment and unit trusts. The capital gains that take place within the unit or investment trust will be taxed at 35 per cent. The Chancellor has indicated that there is the possibility in another Budget of this being raised to 40 per cent., although he hoped that it would not be more than 40 per cent. We heard earlier this afternoon from the Financial Secretary that under some proposed Amendments which might be accepted by the House and which are being moved by the Chancellor at a later stage, we would have a situation that a person paying the standard rate of Income Tax would be paying Capital Gains Tax at a level of 20 per cent.

It means, if the Chancellor went to 40 per cent., that by investing through a unit trust for a period a person will be subject to 40 per cent. or 35 per cent. tax whereas, as an individual, he would only be subject to 20 per cent. tax.

Thus for that period, before taking advantage of any credits which are given to them—most unit and investment trust holders are long-term holders—they will be at a disadvantage, to the extent that the Chancellor has taxed them at the rate of 35 per cent. or 40 per cent., whereas as individuals investing in those same underlying securities and disposing of the same underlying securities they would be taxed only at 20 per cent.

The purpose of the Clause is not even to reduce it to the average rate that will be paid by the individual. It is not to reduce it to the rate paid by the individual paying the standard rate of Income Tax. By the Clause we are trying to secure that the normal rate of 30 per cent. applicable to the individual shall be applied to unit and investment trusts.

Many Amendments which we moved in Committee were then opposed by the Government, although they have now tabled similar Amendments. I hope that this will be another matter on which they will decide to change their attitude. I hope that they will decide to change their attitude in view of the latest figures on savings. I hope that they will change their attitude in view of the general depression which exists among the investing public and savers.

On our attempt to delete the double taxation effects and during the discussions on unit trusts we heard many speeches from both sides of the House on this subject. We heard several hon. Members opposite support this general viewpoint. On several occasions the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) pointed out how damaging the higher taxation in terms of the unit and investment trust movement has been, in that it has discouraged the small investor. The principle outlined as a great doctrine by the Chief Secretary has been somewhat breached, in view of the Government's attitude to charities and unit trusts. The Chief Secretary has seen the importance of some provision so that people paying no Capital Gains Tax will pay no Capital Gains Tax within a unit trust.

I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will, in view of this, also ensure that the same provision applies to the great mass of people who use this movement as a medium of saving. One easy way of achieving that end would be for the Government to accept the Clause.

Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd

I support the Clause. It is broadly true that under our present system one can save or invest either as an individual or in corporation through investment trusts without any disadvantage. I do not think that there is any disadvantage attached to corporate saving through an investment trust. Under the system the Government propose there is now a heavy disadvantage on savings in an incorporated form. The Chief Secretary admitted this in earlier debates touching on this subject by saying that investors have to decide the advantages and disadvantages of the corporate form of investment.

What reason is there for putting a weight of disadvantage on this form of corporate saving, more particularly as the disadvantage becomes greater for the smaller investor because of his lower rate of personal tax from a Capital Gains Tax point of view? I think that the Chief Secretary will answer that it is important that, once a company is taxed, it should be taxed at the same rate for its Corporation Tax and its Capital Gains Tax. This would admittedly be consistent, because the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself said this of a company's profits in his Budget statement: whether those profits arise as trading income or as capital gains is immaterial, and … they should be taxed at the same rate."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th April, 1965; Vol. 709, c. 251.] I can quite understand that the motive behind this with regard to ordinary trading companies might be that there is great simplicity in it and that it would remove the temptation from companies to dress up their accounts in the form of income or of capital gains. I can imagine that in the complicated commercial transactions of big companies it might be possible to do this and that there might be a case that the rate should be the same for such companies.

12.45 a.m.

Investment trusts are in a completely different position, because for them, capital and income are completely separated. The great majority of investment trusts, by their articles of association can never distribute their surpluses and in this Bill, to qualify for being investment trusts, it is compulsory for them never to distribute capital surpluses.

Whatever may be the case with other companies, these are a special form of company engaged in saving. They hold only securities and it is absolutely clear whether one is dealing with income or capital surpluses. The disadvantages that might attach to different rates for Capital Gains Tax and Corporation Tax in the broad mass of companies do not apply in investment trusts and I am arguing that there is no reason in logic why the Chief Secretary should not grant this concession.

I think that it would be in the interest of saving if the right hon. Gentleman did, because that investment trust is a medium for the savings of a large number of small savers and it seems to be a pity to put an extra weight on them. The Government have here an opportunity of somewhat redressing that balance.

Mr. Grimond

I would agree with the view, which I think the Chief Secretary will express, that the debate is bound to be somewhat repetitive, as we had a debate on this in Committee. I think that the Government should to some extent judge that case for an Amendment by the volume of criticism of the Government and of support for an Amendment, as well by the arguments advanced.

I support two of the arguments which have been advanced for this Clause. There is a distinction between unit and investment trusts, and ordinary companies. Although it may be right to charge Capital Gains Tax at the same rate as Corporation Tax for ordinary companies, I think that investment trusts are simply a body of people come together for saving in some organisation.

It cannot be denied that there is some disadvantage, and it may be marginal, in investment in trusts. I feel sure that the Chief Secretary will advance against that the view that this is by no means proved and that in some cases this provision in the Bill may be an advantage to a trust, that in a short-term gain there may be advantages in the Government proposals, but I do not think that people who invest in investment or unit trusts look for short-term gains.

It is much more important to encourage that type of investor who wants to go in for longer term investment. It may be better for that type of investor to do so through a trust than in any other way. The advantages of the investment trust movement as against the unit trust movement is that one puts investment into the hands of experts and that is a sensible thing for many people to do. If the Chief Secretary were to say, "I grant you that this is so, but, nevertheless, there are other reasons for not pressing this matter too far", I would agree; but I should have thought that the Government would want to leave this matter neutral and to put the investor through a trust, whether a unit trust or an investment trust, at no disadvantage. Bearing in mind that most of these investors are long-term investors, they will be put slightly at a disadvantage.

I think that this view is held by many people and I ask the Government to look at the matter again.

Mr. Diamond

I think that it would be convenient for me to reply as the hour is late, and to assure the Committee, and particularly the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), that the Government are conscious of the good work done by unit and investment trusts. At the risk of boring the House, I should say that the Government's attitude is, as I have said before, to encourage saving in all its forms, small and large, and that these are acceptable forms of saving.

The amount of money involved is very small indeed. We are not talking about that, however. We are talking about the principle. The arguments which have been advanced against me are those of principle and the House will, therefore, not object if I reply in terms of principle. In terms of principle, one does not want to put a marked disadvantage on those who invest through unit trusts or investment trusts, and my view is that there is no marked disadvantage in the law as it is now proposed in the Bill.

Unit trusts rarely alter their investments. Investment trusts do. As for investment trusts, many of their shareholders—I do not say the majority—are themselves companies. One therefore should have a major reason for departing from the normal application of the tax. That is absent; there is no major reason for departure. The difference in the rate of tax involved is very small indeed. At present, this is 5 per cent. more or less; I repeat what I said on a previous occasion—more or less. It could be less. It could on occasion be more. I grant that the probability is that on the majority of occasions it would be less for the personal tax, but on some occasions it would be more.

I draw attention to the fact that where companies are shareholders it is inappropriate to charge the rate chargeable to an individual, and many companies are shareholders of investment trusts. The natural way in which the tax would apply is the same as it would apply in the case of all other companies. One differentiates between the company and the shareholder. To look through the company to the individual is breaching the principle of this tax, which we have not done in any other respect and would not be prepared to do here.

It is no good hon. Members saying that they are not attracted by the idea of keeping the tax, not necessarily in a pure form but in an orderly form, because the only arguments advanced against the Bill are arguments of principle, and immediately one departs from the principle of a tax one does an injustice to some individual or other. As soon as a concession is given in one respect, one creates an injustice to somebody in a similar position though not an identical position.

Therefore, we could not accept the Clause because the rate of tax which should be borne by a corporation is that which is appropriate to a corporation. The amount involved is negligible and is not an argument on either side. It would be a major breach of the principle of the tax to attempt to look through the corporation to the individual. It would be inappropriate to regard all investment trust shareholders as individuals when, in fact, a large number of them are companies.

I am bound to repeat what has been said on other occasions—it is necessarily repetitive because we have been through all the arguments many times—that there are two major principles of taxation involved here, and there is no injustice of any discernible kind the other way round. Therefore, I could not recommend the House to accept the Clause.

Mr. William Clark

Nobody could over-emphasise the importance of savings. I know that the Chief Secretary is interested. Many times in opposition he supported Clauses moved by my hon. Friends and myself on savings and I cannot understand why the right hon. Gentleman, at this hour of the night and after such an important Clause has been moved, takes an attitude, now that he has responsibility in the matter, which is so negative towards the small saver. He considers that there should be no differentiation for unit trust savings, but he failed to say that the unit trust is a very good medium for the small saver.

A tycoon with £10,000 or £100,000 to invest can obtain a portfolio and get a spread of investments, and if one investment goes down another goes up and an even balance is kept. The small individual saver with £200 to invest has not the same advantage, but the unit trust gives him a complete spread of investment so that whatever happens to equity shares on the market he can maintain his position. I am sure that the Chief Secretary could not deny this.

The right hon. Gentleman asked why investment trusts should have different treatment. He failed to say that most of the £3,000 million invested with these trusts was invested by charities, superannuation funds and individual investors. If one refers to life assurance funds which invest through investment trusts one is speaking of thousands and thousands of people who hold ordinary insurance policies. On charities the Government are illogical. Charities are exempt from Capital Gains Tax.

The Government cannot have it both ways. The Chief Secretary was not at all forthcoming in his criticism when he said that investment trusts and unit trusts are altogether different from the individual. More individuals are represented through these trusts than the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to admit. He continues throughout our debates to pay lip service to the Government's wish to help the small saver, but the Government do nothing about helping him. My hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) moved the new Clause to give the Government the opportunity of proving that they want to do something for the small saver.

No hon. Member would deny the qualities and capabilities of the unit trust movement and its advantages to the small man, but what has happened in recent years? Over the first five months of 1964, while there was a Tory Administration, £44 million were additionally invested in unit trusts. Over the first five months of this year that figure has fallen to £33 million. In my view, this is a serious reduction, a fall of about 25 per cent. in investment in unit trusts. Why? It has come about because of the implementation of the Capital Gains Tax and Corporation Tax as they affect the small saver.

1.0 a.m.

There is no question of tax avoidance raised by the Clause. It is designed to help the small saver. If the Government are to have deficit financing in their Budget, as they must, they must also continue to help small savings, but, as my hon. Friend pointed out, it is most unfair to charge Corporation Tax at 35 or 40 per cent. on the only medium through which the small man can invest whereas the individual would probably pay only half that rate, or, in the case of many small savers, would have no liability at all. How can the right hon.

Gentleman say that he is helping small savers if he will not concede the principle which we are pressing upon him?

If it is found that the small saver is being penalised under the Bill, and if Corporation Tax goes up in the future, the small saver must be given a way by which he can opt out. Why has the Chief Secretary turned down this most useful Clause? Savings help a man to be independent. I urge the right hon. Gentleman to think about this again because the country generally and small savers, in particular, are looking to the Government to pay active tribute to the savings movement instead of just saying that they want to help but do not think they can.

Question put, That the Clause be read a Second time:—

The House divided: Ayes 180, Noes 166.

Division No. 238.] AYES [1.2 a.m.
Agnew, Commander Sir Peter Doughty, Charles Kershaw, Anthony
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec Kimball, Marcus
Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.) du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Eden, Sir John Kirk, Peter
Amery, Rt. Hon. Julian Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) Kitson, Timothy
Anstruther-Gray, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) Lagden, Godfrey
Astor, John Emery, Peter Lambton, Viscount
Atkins, Humphrey Eyre, Reginald Langford-Holt, Sir John
Awdry, Daniel Farr, John Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Baker, W. H. K. Fisher, Nigel Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Balniel, Lord Fletcher-Cooke, Charles (Darwen) Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral)
Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton) Longden, Gilbert
Barlow, Sir John Gibson-Watt, David Loveys, Walter H.
Batsford, Brian Giles, Rear-Admiral Morgan Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross & Crom'ty)
Bell, Ronald Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, Central) Mackie, George Y. (C'ness & S'land)
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) McLaren, Martin
Berry, Hn. Anthony Glover, Sir Douglas Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain
Biggs-Davison, John Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest
Black, Sir Cyril Goodhart, Philip Marten, Neil
Blaker, Peter Goodhew, Victor Maude, Angus
Box, Donald Gower, Raymond Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Braine, Bernard Grant, Anthony Meyer, Sir Anthony
Brewis, John Gresham Cooke, R. Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Brinton, Sir Tatton Griffiths, Peter (Smethwick) Miscampbell, Norman
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. Monro, Hector
Brooke, Rt. Hn. Henry Gurden, Harold More, Jasper
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Hall, John (Wycombe) Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Bruce-Gardyne, J. Hall-Davis, A. G. F. Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles
Bryan, Paul Hamilton, M. (Salisbury) Murton, Oscar
Buchanan-Smith, Alick Harris, Reader (Heston) Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
Buxton, Ronald Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd) Nugent, Rt. Hn. Sir Richard
Campbell, Gordon Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.) Osborn, John (Hallam)
Carlisle, Mark Harvie Anderson, Miss Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert Hastings, Stephen Page, R. Graham (Crosby)
Channon, H. P. G. Hawkins, Paul Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe)
Chataway, Christopher Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward Peel, John
Chichester-Clark, R. Hendry, Forbes Peyton, John
Clark, William (Nottingham, S.) Higgins, Terence L. Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Cooke, Robert Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk) Price, David (Eastleigh)
Corfield, F. V. Hobson, Rt. Hn. Sir John Prior, J. M. L.
Costain, A. P. Hopkins, Alan Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James
Courtney, Cdr. Anthony Hornby, Richard Redmayne, Rt. Hn. Sir Martin
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver Hutchison, Michael Clark Rees-Davies, W. R.
Cunningham, Sir Knox Johnson Smith, G. (East Grinstead) Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Curran, Charles Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Dalkeith, Earl of Jopling, Michael Ridsdale, Julian
Dance, James Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)
Davies, Dr. Wyndham (Perry Barr) Kaberry, Sir Donald Roots, William
Dodds-Parker, Douglas Kerr, Sir Hamilton (Cambridge) Sandys, Rt. Hn. D.
Sharples, Richard Thorpe, Jeremy Whitelaw, William
Sinclair, Sir George Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.) Williams, Sir Rolf Dudley (Exeter)
Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick) Tilney, John (Wavertree) Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Soames, Rt. Hn. Christopher Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Speir, Sir Rupert van Straubenzee, W. R. Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Stainton, Keith Walder, David (High Peak) Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher
Stanley, Hn. Richard Walker, Peter (Worcester) Woodnutt, Mark
Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) Wall, Patrick Yates, William (The Wrekin)
Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart) Walters, Dennis Younger, Hn. George
Temple, John M. Ward, Dame Irene
Thomas, Sir Leslie (Canterbury) Webster, David TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.) Wells, John (Maidstone) Mr. Ian MacArthur and Mr. Pym.
Abse, Leo Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Newens, Stan
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Hamilton, William (West Fife) Norwood, Christopher
Alldritt, Walter Hamling, William (Woolwich, W.) Oakes, Gordon
Atkinson, Norman Hannan, William Ogden, Eric
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Harper, Joseph O'Malley, Brian
Baxter, William Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Orme, Stanley
Bence, Cyril Hazell, Bert Oswald, Thomas
Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Heffer, Eric S. Page, Derek (King's Lynn)
Bishop, E. S. Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret Paget, R. T.
Blackburn, F. Horner, John Palmer, Arthur
Blenkinsop, Arthur Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas Pentland, Norman
Boardman, H. Howell, Denis (Small Heath) Rees, Merlyn
Bradley, Tom Howie, W. Rhodes, Geoffrey
Bray, Dr. Jeremy Hoy, James Richard, Ivor
Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper) Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) Robertson, John (Paisley)
Brown, Hugh D. (Glasgow, Provan) Hunter, Adam (Dunfermline) Rodgers, William (Stockton)
Buchan, Norman (Renfrewshire, W.) Irving, Sydney (Dartford) Rose, Paul B.
Buchanan, Richard Jackson, Colin Ross, Rt. Hn. William
Carmichael, Neil Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Rowland, Christopher
Coleman, Donald Jeger, George (Goole) Shore, Peter (Stepney)
Conlan, Bernard Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Short, Rt. Hn. E. (N'c'tle-on-Tyne, C.)
Crawshaw, Richard Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) Silkin, John (Deptford)
Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Silverman, Julius (Aston)
Cullen, Mrs. Alice Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Skeffington, Arthur
Dalyell, Tam Kelley, Richard Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Kenyon, Clifford Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)
de Freitas, Sir Geoffrey Lawson, George Small, William
Dell, Edmund Leadbitter, Ted Snow, Julian
Diamond, Rt. Hn. John Lever, Harold (Cheetham) Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Dodds, Norman Lever, L. M. (Ardwick) Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
Doig, Peter Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Swain, Thomas
Duffy, Dr. A. E. P. Lipton, Marcus Swingler, Stephen
Dunn, James A. Loughlin, Charles Symonds, J. B.
Dunnett, Jack Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Taverne, Dick
Edelman, Maurice McBride, Neil Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)
Edwards, Robert (Bilston) McCann, J. Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.)
English, Michael MacColl, James Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)
Ennals, David MacDermot, Niall Tinn, James
Ensor, David McGuire, Michael Tuck, Raphael
Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.) McInnes, James Urwin, T. W.
Fernyhough, E. Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) Varley, Eric G.
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) Walden, Brian (All Saints)
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) Mahon, Simon (Bootle) Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Floud, Bernard Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) Wallace, George
Foot, Sir Dingle (Ipswich) Manuel, Archie Watkins, Tudor
Ford, Ben Mapp, Charles Wells, William (Walsall, N.)
Fraser, Rt. Hn. Tom (Hamilton) Mayhew, Christopher Whitlock, William
Freeson, Reginald Mikardo, Ian Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Garrett, W. E. Millan, Bruce Williams, Clifford (Abertillery)
Ginsburg, David Miller, Dr. M. S. Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)
Gourlay, Harry Milne, Edward (Blyth) Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.)
Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony Molloy, William Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)
Gregory, Arnold Morris, Charles (Openshaw) Woof, Robert
Grey, Charles Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Sheffield Pk) Yates, Victor (Ladywood)
Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Murray, Albert
Hale, Leslie Neal, Harold TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Mr. George Rogers and Mr. Fitch.

Question put, That the Clause be added to the Bill:—

The House divided: Ayes 180, Noes 167.

Division No. 239.] AYES [1.14 a.m.
Agnew, Commander Sir Peter Amery, Rt. Hon. Julian Awdry, Daniel
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Anstruther-Gray, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Baker, W. H. K.
Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.) Astor, John Balniel, Lord
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Atkins, Humphrey Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony
Barlow, Sir John Grant, Anthony Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
Batsford, Brian Gresham Cooke, R. Nugent, Rt. Hn. Sir Richard
Bell, Ronald Griffiths, Peter (Smethwick) Osborn, John (Hallam)
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Berry, Hn. Anthony Gurden, Harold Page, R. Graham (Crosby)
Biggs-Davison, John Hall, John (Wycombe) Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe)
Black, Sir Cyril Hall-Davis, A. G. F. Peel, John
Blaker, Peter Hamilton, M. (Salisbury) Peyton, John
Box, Donald Harris, Reader (Heston) Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Braine, Bernard Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd) Price, David (Eastleigh)
Brewis, John Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.) Prior, J. M. L.
Brinton, Sir Tatton Harvie Anderson, Miss Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter Hastings, Stephen Redmayne, Rt. Hn. Sir Martin
Brooke, Rt. Hn. Henry Hawkins, Paul Rees-Davies, W. R.
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Bruce-Gardyne, J. Hendry, Forbes Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Bryan, Paul Higgins, Terence L. Ridsdale, Julian
Buchanan-Smith, Alick Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk) Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)
Buxton, Ronald Hobson, Rt. Hn. Sir John Roots, William
Campbell, Gordon Hopkins, Alan Sandys, Rt. Hn. D.
Carlisle, Mark Hornby, Richard Sharples, Richard
Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert Hutchison, Michael Clark Sinclair, Sir George
Channon, H. P. G. Johnson Smith, G. (East Grinstead) Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)
Chataway Christopher Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Soames, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Chichester-Clark, R. Jopling, Michael Speir, Sir Rupert
Clark, William (Nottingham, S.) Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith Stainton, Keith
Cooke, Robert Kaberry, Sir Donald Stanley, Hn. Richard
Corfield, F. V. Kerr, Sir Hamilton (Cambridge) Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Costain, A. P. Kershaw, Anthony Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)
Courtney, Cdr. Anthony Kimball, Marcus Temple, John M.
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) Thomas, Sir Leslie (Canterbury)
Cunningham, Sir Knox Kirk, Peter Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)
Curran, Charles Kitson, Timothy Thorpe, Jeremy
Dalkeith, Earl of Lagden, Godfrey Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)
Dance, James Lambton, Viscount Tilney, John (Wavertree)
Davies, Dr. Wyndham (Perry Barr) Langford-Holt, Sir John Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.
Dodds-Parker, Douglas Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry van Straubenzee, W. R.
Doughty, Charles
Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Walder, David (High Peak)
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral) Walker, Peter (Worcester)
Eden, Sir John Longden, Gilbert Wall, Patrick
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) Loveys, Walter H. Walters, Dennis
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross & Crom'ty) Ward, Dame Irene
Emery, Peter Mackie, George Y. (C'ness & S'land) Webster, David
Eyre, Reginald McLaren, Martin Wells, John (Maidstone)
Farr, John Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain Whitelaw, William
Fisher, Nigel Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest Williams, Sir Rolf Dudley (Exeter)
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles (Darwen) Marten, Neil Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton) Maude, Angus Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Gibson-Watt, David Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J. Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Giles, Rear-Admiral Morgan Meyer, Sir Anthony Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher
Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, Central) Mills, Peter (Torrington) Woodnutt, Mark
Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) Miscampbell, Norman Yates, William (The Wrekin)
Glover, Sir Douglas Monro, Hector Younger, Hn. George
Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. More, Jasper
Goodhart, Philip Morrison, Charles (Devizes) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Goodhew, Victor Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles Mr. Ian MacArthur and Mr. Pym.
Gower, Raymond Murton, Oscar
Abse, Leo Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony Ford, Ben
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Cullen, Mrs. Alice Fraser, Rt. Hn. Tom (Hamilton)
Alldritt, Walter Dalyell, Tam Freeson, Reginald
Atkinson, Norman Davies, Ifor (Gower) Garrett, W. E.
Bagier, Gordon A. T. de Freitas, Sir Geoffrey Ginsburg, David
Baxter, William Dell, Edmund Gourlay, Harry
Bence, Cyril Diamond, Rt. Hn. John Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony
Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Dodds, Norman Gregory, Arnold
Bishop, E. S. Doig, Peter Grey, Charles
Blackburn, F. Duffy, Dr. A. E. P. Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)
Blenkinsop, Arthur Dunn, James A. Hale, Leslie
Boardman, H. Dunnett, Jack Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Bradley, Tom Edelman, Maurice Hamilton, William (West Fife)
Bray, Dr. Jeremy Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Hamling, William (Woolwich, W.)
Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper) English, Michael Hannan, William
Brown, Hugh D. (Glasgow, Provan) Ennals, David Harper, Joseph
Buchan, Norman (Renfrewshire, W.) Ensor, David Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Buchanan, Richard Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.) Hazell, Bert
Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James Fernyhough, E. Heffer, Eric S.
Carmichael, Neil Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret
Coleman, Donald Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) Horner, John
Conlan, Bernard Floud, Bernard Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas
Crawshaw, Richard Foot, Sir Dingle (Ipswich) Howell, Denis (Small Heath)
Howie, W. Mayhew, Christopher Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)
Hoy, James Mikardo, lan Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)
Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) Millan, Bruce Small, William
Hunter, Adam (Dunfermline) Miller, Dr. M. S. Snow, Julian
Irving, Sydney (Dartford) Milne, Edward (Blyth) Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Jackson, Colin Molloy, William Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Morris, Charles (Openshaw) Swain, Thomas
Jeger, George (Goole) Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Sheffield Pk) Swingler, Stephen
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Murray, Albert Symonds, J. B.
Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) Neal, Harold Taverne, Dick
Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Newens, Stan Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)
Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Norwood, Christopher Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)
Kelley, Richard Oakes, Gordon Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)
Kenyon, Clifford Ogden, Eric Tinn, James
Lawson, George O'Malley, Brian Tuck, Raphael
Leadbitter, Ted Orme, Stanley Urwin, T. W.
Lever, Harold (Cheetham) Oswald, Thomas Varley, Eric G.
Lever, L. M. (Ardwick) Page, Derek (King's Lynn) Walden, Brian (All Saints)
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Paget, R. T. Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Lipton, Marcus Palmer, Arthur Wallace, George
Loughlin, Charles Pentland, Norman Watkins, Tudor
Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Rees, Merlyn Wells, William (Walsall, N.)
McBride, Neil Rhodes, Geoffrey Whitlock, William
McCann, J. Richard, Ivor Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
MacColl, James Robertson, John (Paisley) Williams, Clifford (Abertillery)
MacDermot, Niall Rodgers, William (Stockton) Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)
McGuire, Michael Rose, Paul B. Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.)
McInnes, James Ross, Rt. Hn. William Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)
Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) Rowland, Christopher Woof, Robert
Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) Shore, Peter (Stepney) Yates, Victor (Ladywood)
Mahon, Simon (Bootle) Short, Rt. Hn. E. (N'c'tle-on-Tyne, C.)
Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) Silkin, John (Deptford) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Manuel, Archie Silverman, Julius (Aston) Mr. George Rogers and Mr. Fitch.
Mapp, Charles Skeffington, Arthur
Hon. Members


Mr. Sydney Irving (Treasurer of Her Majesty's Household)

I beg to move, That further consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned.

Mr. Heath

I beg to move, That further consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Dr. Horace King)

Order. I have from both sides of the House the same Motion. I must take that which came first.

Mr. Heath


Hon. Members

Why not the Leader of the Opposition?

Mr. Reginald Freeson (Willesden, East)

On a point of order—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. I think that I am being addressed on a point of order.

Hon. Members

Where is the Prime Minister?

Mr. Freeson

My point of order, Sir, is that I heard an hon. Member on the Opposition side using the word "ratting".

Hon. Members


Mr. Speaker

Let there be order. I must hear the point.

Mr. Freeson

I wish to ask for your guidance, Sir, and perhaps I might have quiet while making my point of order. [Interruption.] With the permission of the gentlemanly party opposite, I would like your guidance on whether it is correct to use that kind of language. [HON. MEMBERS: "What language?"] I distinctly heard the remark thrown across the Chamber, not once, not twice, but three or four times, that hon. Members on this side, in particular the Prime Minister, were ratting.

Hon. Members

Where is he?

Mr. Speaker

What is the point of order?

Mr. Freeson

It is to ask whether that is appropriate and orderly language in this Chamber.

Mr. Speaker

I think that we have heard a lot worse. The language is slightly agricultural, but we had better tolerate it.

Mr. Heath

During the last few minutes the Government have been defeated by majorities which, in this Parliament, are substantial. As a result, a Clause of considerable importance has now been added to the Bill. It affects hundreds and thousands of small savers and investors who invest in unit and investment trusts and for whom the rate of Capital Gains Tax will now be the same as for individuals. This has, therefore, achieved one of our objectives, persistently argued throughout the whole of the Committee stage and throughout the Report stage, that there should be special treatment for small savers.

This is a thesis which the Chief Secretary and, indeed, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the whole of the Treasury Bench have constantly rejected. Now, as a result of the vote of both Opposition parties, the Government have been defeated, and immediately they have rushed for cover. It is well known in the House that the Government wished to go further tonight than the new Clauses, but, as a result of these defeats, they have put up a Whip to move that further consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned. They realise that they have lost control of the House. They have lost their majority and can no longer continue their business.

This is the second occasion today on which it has happened, both within the remembrance of the House. The Leader of the House of Commons was himself repudiated by a large part of his own party.

The Government and their supporters have been twice trounced this morning. Where is the Prime Minister? Only 10 days ago, in Glasgow, he was boasting of their achievement in carrying through the Committee stage of the Finance Bill, and he added: If we can get the Finance Bill through with this majority, we can get anything through. The Government have not got it through as they wanted it, so the lie is thrown in the Prime Minister's teeth. He cannot get it through. Therefore, he cannot get anything through, and the Government have admitted it.

The lesson will be drawn by the country. The Government, who are trying to force through a Finance Bill which the country does not want, have now been twice defeated. The Government have very quickly drawn the lesson themselves. The country will follow. The lesson for the Government is plain. They should resign, and resign quickly. The country can then pass its verdict upon them.

1.30 a.m.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. James Callaghan)

For a right hon. Gentleman who is claiming a great triumph, the right hon. Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath) seemed very grim in all that he has just said. There was not even a smile or a flicker of triumph across his face, so intense was his determination to enjoy the battle. He has won a great victory. Why does he not cheer up? [HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down."] We have plenty of time.

There is all the rest of tonight if hon. Members do not want to go home. We are quite ready to serve the House. If hon. Members do not want to go home, let us go on. There is no difficulty about that. The right hon. Gentleman seems to be enjoying himself now that he has sat down. I wish that he had enjoyed himself more when he stood up. I do not quite know what was the point of his intervention. Is he saying that he wants us to go on, or that he wants us to go home? [HON. MEMBERS: "Resign."] Before we decide that question, we had better decide what the Opposition want to do tonight—to go on or to go home? Which is it? I know what most of them really want to do. They want to go home to bed.

Mr. Heath


Mr. Callaghan

I am delighted to see the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) with us. There is at least one total abstainer in the House tonight. I am very glad indeed to have him here. [Interruption.] I do not know whether it is possible to make a connected speech when the Conservative Party are in this mood, but as far as I am concerned, I am in possession of the Dispatch Box and I am quite happy to remain in possession of it, certainly for the time it takes to quieten hon. Members opposite, so that we can decide what to do.

The Opposition have, after a succession of over 90, won a victory—[HON. MEMBERS: "Two".] I beg their pardon; they have won two victories. The score is now 93 to 2. That is not a bad tally. If the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bexley and his right hon. and hon. Friends wish to continue with the debate on the Bill, then we will do so for so long as they like. If they wish to carry on, then we on this side will be very happy to do so. [Interruption.] All hon. Members opposite seem to want to do is to score a false stratagem. They have got their victory, and now we can proceed with the Bill.

There is much more to discuss, and much to debate, and as the right hon. Gentleman does not appear to wish to go home, then I suggest that we continue with the debate—[Interruption.] I did not catch what that was, but I can tell hon. Members that we are running rather later than both sides expected to do. As the right hon. Gentleman has just said, we have not got all the business we expected. I should have thought, therefore, that there was every reason for continuing with the debate and getting

as much business completed as we possibly can tonight.

I hope that we can now proceed with the discussion on the Bill.

Mr. Heath


Mr. Speaker

I think that the right hon. Gentleman requires the leave of the House.

Hon. Members


Mr. Speaker

The indications are that the right hon. Gentleman does not have the leave of the House.

Question put, That further consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned:—

The House divided: Ayes 180, Noes 167.

Division No. 240.] AYES [1.37 a.m.
Agnew, Commander Sir Peter Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton) Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash) Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.) Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.) Emery, Peter Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral)
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead) Eyre, Reginald Longden, Gilbert
Amery, Rt. Hon. Julian Farr, John Loveys, Walter H.
Anstruther-Gray, Rt. Hn. Sir W. Fisher, Nigel MacArthur, Ian
Astor, John Fletcher-Cooke, Charles (Darwen) Mackenzie, Alasdair (Ross & Crom'ty)
Atkins, Humphrey Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton) Mackie, George Y. (C'ness & S'land)
Awdry, Daniel Gibson-Watt, David Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain
Baker, W. H. K. Giles, Rear-Admiral Morgan Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest
Balniel, Lord Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, Central) Marten, Neil
Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) Maude, Angus
Barlow, Sir John Glover, Sir Douglas Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Batsford, Brian Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B. Meyer, Sir Anthony
Bell, Ronald Goodhart, Philip Mills, Peter (Torrington)
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay) Goodhew, Victor Miscampbell, Norman
Berry, Hn. Anthony Gower, Raymond Monro, Hector
Biggs-Davison, John Grant, Anthony Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Black, Sir Cyril Gresham Cooke, R. Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles
Blaker, Peter Griffiths, Peter (Smethwick) Murton, Oscar
Box, Donald Grimond, Rt. Hn. J. Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael
Braine, Bernard Gurden, Harold Nugent, Rt. Hn. Sir Richard
Brewis, John Hall, John (Wycombe) Osborn, John (Hallam)
Brinton, Sir Tatton Hall-Davis, A. G. F. Page, John (Harrow, W.)
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter Hamilton, M. (Salisbury) Page, R. Graham (Crosby)
Brooke, Rt. Hn. Henry Harris, Reader (Heston) Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe)
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd) Peel, John
Bruce-Gardyne, J. Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.) Peyton, John
Bryan, Paul Harvie Anderson, Miss Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Buchanan-Smith, Alick Hastings, Stephen Price, David (Eastleigh)
Buxton, Ronald Hawkins, Paul Prior, J. M. L.
Campbell, Gordon Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward Pym, Francis
Carlisle, Mark Hendry, Forbes Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James
Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert Higgins, Terence L. Redmayne, Rt. Hn. Sir Martin
Channon, H. P. G. Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)
Chataway, Christopher Hobson, Rt. Hn. Sir John Rees-Davies, W. R.
Chichester-Clark, R. Hopkins, Alan Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David
Clark, William (Nottingham, S.) Hornby, Richard Ridley, Hn. Nicholas
Cooke, Robert Hutchison, Michael Clark Ridsdale, Julian
Corfield, F. V. Johnson Smith, G. (East Grinstead) Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)
Costain, A. P. Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Roots, William
Courtney, Cdr. Anthony Jopling, Michael Sandys, Rt. Hn. D.
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith Sharples, Richard
Cunningham, Sir Knox Kaberry, Sir Donald Sinclair, Sir George
Curran, Charles Kerr, Sir Hamilton (Cambridge) Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)
Dalkeith, Earl of Kershaw, Anthony Soames, Rt. Hn. Christopher
Dance, James Kimball, Marcus Speir, Sir Rupert
Davies, Dr. Wyndham (Perry Barr) King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.) Stainton, Keith
Dodds-Parker, Douglas Kirk, Peter Stanley, Hn. Richard
Doughty, Charles Kitson, Timothy Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec Lagden, Godfrey Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)
du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward Lambton, Viscount Temple, John M.
Eden, Sir John Langford-Holt, Sir John Thomas, Sir Leslie (Canterbury)
Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.) Wall, Patrick Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick
Thorpe, Jeremy Walters, Dennis Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard
Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.) Ward, Dame Irene Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher
Tilney, John (Wavertree) Webster, David Woodnutt, Mark
Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H. Wells, John (Maidstone) Yates, William (The Wrekin)
van Straubenzee, W. R. Whitelaw, William Younger, Hn. George
Walder, David (High Peak) Williams, Sir Rolf Dudley (Exeter)
Walker, Peter (Worcester) Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Mr. McLaren and Mr. More.
Abse, Leo Hale, Leslie Newens, Stan
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Norwood, Christopher
Alldritt, Walter Hamilton, William (West Fife) Oakes, Gordon
Atkinson, Norman Hamling, William (Woolwich, W.) Ogden, Eric
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Hannan, William O'Malley, Brian
Baxter, William Harper, Joseph Orme, Stanley
Bence, Cyril Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Oswald, Thomas
Bennett, J. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Hazell, Bert Page, Derek (King's Lynn)
Bishop, E. S. Heffer, Eric S. Paget, R. T.
Blackburn, F. Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret Palmer, Arthur
Blenkinsop, Arthur Horner, John Pentland, Norman
Boardman, H. Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas Rees, Merlyn
Bradley, Tom Howell, Denis (Small Heath) Rhodes, Geoffrey
Bray, Dr. Jeremy Howie, W. Richards, Ivor
Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper) Hoy, James Robertson, John (Paisley)
Brown, Hugh D. (Glasgow, Provan) Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) Rodgers, William (Stockton)
Buchan, Norman (Renfrewshire, W.) Hunter, Adam (Dunfermline) Rose, Paul B.
Buchanan, Richard Irving, Sydney (Dartford) Ross, Rt. Hn. William
Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James Jackson, Colin Rowland, Christopher
Carmichael, Neil Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas Shore, Peter (Stepney)
Coleman, Donald Jeger, George (Goole) Short, Rt. Hn. E. (N'c'tle-on-Tyne, C.)
Conlan, Bernard Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Silkin, John (Duptford)
Crawshaw, Richard Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.) Silverman, Julius (Aston)
Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Skeffington, Arthur
Cullen, Mrs. Alice Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)
Dalyell, Tam Kelley, Richard Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Kenyon, Clifford Small, William
de Freitas, Sir Geoffrey Leadbitter, Ted Snow, Julian
Dell, Edmund Lever, Harold (Cheetham) Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.)
Diamond, Rt. Hn. John Lever, L. M. (Ardwick) Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
Dodds, Norman Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Swain, Thomas
Doig, Peter Lipton, Marcus Swingler, Stephen
Duffy, Dr. A. E. P. Loughlin, Charles Symonds, J. B.
Dunn, James A. Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson Taverne, Dick
Dunnett, Jack McBride, Neil Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)
Edelman, Maurice McCann, J. Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)
Edwards, Robert (Bilston) MacColl, James Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)
English, Michael MacDermot, Niall Tinn, James
Ennals, David McGuire, Michael Tuck, Raphael
Ensor, David McInnes, James Urwin, T. W.
Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.) Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen) Varley, Eric G.
Fernyhough, E. Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.) Walden, Brian (All Saints)
Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Mahon, Simon (Bootle) Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Wallace, George
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) Watkins, Tudor
Floud, Bernard Manuel, Archie Wells, William (Walsall, N.)
Foot, Sir Dingle (Ipswich) Mapp, Charles Whitlock, William
Ford, Ben Mayhew, Christopher Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Fraser, Rt. Hn. Tom (Hamilton) Mikardo, Ian Williams, Clifford (Abertillery)
Freeson, Reginald Millan, Bruce Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)
Garrett, W. E. Miller, Dr. M. S.
Ginsburg, David Milne, Edward (Blyth) Willis, George (Edinburgh, E.)
Gourlay, Harry Molloy, William Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)
Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony Morris, Charles (Openshaw) Woof, Robert
Gregory, Arnold Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Sheffield Pk) Yates, Victor (Ladywood)
Grey, Charles Murray, Albert
Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Neal, Harold TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Mr. Lawson and Mr. George Rogers.
Mr. Speaker

Consideration to be resumed what day?

Mr. George Rogers (Lord Commissioner of the Treasury)

Tomorrow, Sir.

Hon. Members


Mr. Speaker

This day.

Bill, as amended, to be further considered this day.

Mr. Callaghan

We will beat you next time, too.

Forward to