HC Deb 01 July 1965 vol 715 cc802-5
17. Mr. William Hamilton

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress he has made in his negotiations on the integration of the public schools into the state system of education.

Mr. Crosland

I am not yet able to add to what I have already said on this subject.

Mr. Hamilton

Does my right hon. Friend recognise that we on this side of the House attach very great importance to speedy progress with these negotiations? Will he give a very firm assurance that he will under no circumstances accept the Fleming principle as a solution to this problem, nor any refinement or extension of it?

Mr. Crosland

I recognise the strong feelings which are held on this side of the House on the subject. Indeed, in various writings, I have given strong expression to them myself over the last 10 or 15 years. I would not commit myself to what my hon. Friend has said about the addition of any refinement or extension, because I am not sure what that might mean—

Mr. Hamilton

I could explain.

Mr. Crosland

Perhaps my hon. Friend will tell me and then I will see whether I can say "Yes".

Mr. Hamilton

What I mean is this—[HON. MEMBERS: "Question."] Does my right hon. Friend recognise that what I mean is precisely this, that he will not accept that the solution to the public school problem is to allow 50 per cent., or even 75 per cent., of places in public schools to children who are going to public schools as we understand them on this side of the House—the public sector? Does he agree that what we want to get rid of is the social snobbery attached to public schools?

Mr. Crosland

I think that I would rather confine myself to the statement of objective which appeared in the Labour Party election manifesto, that our object is to integrate the public schools into the State sector of education.

Mr. Chataway

Since the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) makes it absolutely clear that what he wants is that independent schools should be declared illegal, will the Secretary of State make it equally clear that he would never countenance a step of that sort, which, of course, has no parallel in any democracy?

Mr. Crosland

No such suggestion has ever been made, either by myself or any other member of the Government or the Labour Party at any time, and the hon. Member has no right to put wild suggestions into my mouth or anybody else's. I repeat what I said and what is clearly stated in the Labour Party election manifesto—we would wish to integrate the public schools into the State sector of education, a most laudable aim.

Mr. Hamling

Is my right hon. Friend aware that what we want on this side of the House is the abolition of privilege and not the bolstering-up of privilege by importing children from State schools into public schools?

Mr. Lubbock

Since on a previous occasion the Secretary of State gave false figures to the House—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—about the numbers of children of certain hon. Members who went to public schools, will he publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT a table showing the number of children of Members of the present Government who are sent to public schools?

Mr. Crosland

What I did on the previous occasion was to give to the House the latest published figures of what happened to the children of Liberal Party hon. Members. The fact that the figures were out of date turned out to be because half of the then membership of the Parliamentary Liberal Party were unable to fill in a simple questionnaire.

Mr. Lubbock

rose—

Mr. Speaker

This statistical inquiry is rather far from the Question.

Sir E. Boyle

Is it not Questions like the supplementary question of the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) which have led many people to suppose that at any rate a large part of the party opposite wish to render independent education illegal? Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that his denial this afternoon will give considerable relief?

Mr. Crosland

I should like to answer that. I have not heard from any of my Friends, quite apart from any other members of the Government, any suggestion at any time that private education should be rendered illegal. Never.

19. Mr. Marten

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what would be the estimated annual cost to the public authorities of educating all students at present in public schools in the state system.

Mr. Crosland

A reliable estimate is not possible because the actual cost would depend on how far extra teachers and buildings proved necessary.

If tuition were provided in the State system for all the 94,000 pupils of secondary school age for the boys' public schools and the equivalent girls' schools, present average expenditure per head would suggest that the cost would be of the order of £15 million a year.

Mr. Marten

As there will always be so much which needs doing of a very urgent nature in education in this country, is it not a very high price indeed to pay for an attempt to abolish some notional social snobbery such as that referred to by the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton)?

Mr. Crosland

I took it from the hon. Member's Question that he wanted to abolish all independent schools and to drive their population into the State sector of eduction. As to the cost of some such reform as this, £15 million—and nobody is committing himself to any particular scheme—does not seem a very high price to pay for a major social change.

Mr. Mikardo

Would my right hon. Friend go a shade further and say that this would be a low price to pay for the enormous social value of relieving nearly 100,000 young men and women from the bad effects of a public school education?

Mr. Lubbock

Including the Minister.