HC Deb 16 February 1965 vol 706 cc1008-11
Q6. Sir C. Osborne

asked the Prime Minister when he proposes to visit Bonn; and if he will make a statement on the main subjects he proposes to raise.

The Prime Minister

As has been announced, I plan to visit Bonn from 7th to 9th March, after visiting Berlin on the previous day. Our discussions will cover the main subjects of common interest to our two countries.

Sir C. Osborne

While wishing the Prime Minister well in this important visit—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It is a good job that we are not all so mean and narrow-gutted. Will the right hon. Gentleman remind the German Government that Stalin is dead and that there is no need to keep 50,000 British troops in the Rhine to defend Germany against a threat which no longer exists? Will the right hon. Gentleman see if we can bring the British troops home?

The Prime Minister

I am sure that the discussions will be very far-ranging. As I said last week, the hopes which we have, and which the German Government and all the German people have, for ultimate reunification and easement of tension depend on any measures which can be used to secure a détente in that part of the world. I agree with the hon. Gentleman if that is what he had in mind.

On the question of the troops, certainly one of the things likely to come up is the appalling situation in regard to support costs. The agreement concluded last summer seems to have provided a situation very unsatisfactory to this country. The cost of our troops is £85 million and offset payments leave a gap of about £60 million which we have to meet.

Mr. Bellenger

Would the matters of common interest to which my right hon. Friend referred include the Common Market if it were mentioned by the German Chancellor?

The Prime Minister

As the House knows, I had a lengthy preliminary discussion with the German Chancellor when he visited Britain recently for Sir Winston Churchill's funeral. My impression when we were talking about the things which came up was that anything which either side wants to raise will certainly be discussed there. I should be very surprised if relations between E.F.T.A. and the E.E.C. and any measures to ease or end the economic division in Europe were not part of the subjects to be considered and discussed.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

Before the Prime Minister persists in his comment on the support costs agreement of last summer, will he realise that, although it may be useful to him to take that line in order to attack the previous Administration, if he puts this interpretation on the agreement—it is not the interpretation which was meant at the time—he simply weakens his own bargaining position with the Germans? Surely it is more important that he should stand up for British interests by putting the right interpretation on this agreement instead of simply using it as an opportunity to blacken the Opposition.

The Prime Minister

I think that our bargaining power would have been very much greater on this if the right hon. Gentleman had shown at that time as much enthusiasm for standing up for British interests as he is doing now.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter

If the right hon. Gentleman is concerned to stand up for British interests, will he, perhaps for the first time, study the agreement and make it clear to himself and, therefore, possibly to the Germans that the agreement left the possibility of obtaining full recompense from the Germans? Will he press for that instead of merely trying to score very cheap political points?

The Prime Minister

Yes, Sir; the agreement certainly left possibilities. I should have thought that it would be better if it had been a little more watertight. Obviously, from our experience based on this, we must have a lawyer to draft it next time.

Mr. Peter Emery

On a point of order. I heard the hon. Member for Ayrshire, South, I think, shout the word "Quisling" across the House. It seemed to me to be entirely out of order. Could I have a Ruling from you, Mr. Speaker, on that matter?

Mr. Speaker

Perhaps the hon. Member will be good enough to tell me whether he used the word. I did not hear it if he did.

Mr. Manuel

I am the Member for Central Ayrshire, not Ayrshire, South. I did use the word "Quisling", which has been used by Members opposite previously.

Mr. Speaker

Perhaps I was not here then, but the hon. Gentleman must withdraw it now.

Mr. Manuel

I am very willing to withdraw it if the Member who used it first also withdraws it.

Mr. Speaker

This is the position for the moment. I have a complaint relating to the hon. Member, and I am obliged to him and note that he has withdrawn the word. I have no other complaint before me.

Mr. William Hamilton

Can you advise the House, Mr. Speaker, as to why an hon. Member should be asked to withdraw a word which has honourable precedence of use? Can you tell the House exactly what the word means?

Mr. Speaker

It means something which I do not regard as desirable in the interests of the House. I am not anxious to advance the compilation of a Parliamentary dictionary.

Later—

Mr. Manuel

In connection with the withdrawal very readily by me of the word "Quisling", may I draw your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the fact that the right hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) has used this word previously in debates on nationalisation procedures? I would ask that the work be expunged from the record since you have now ruled, Mr. Speaker, that it is unparliamentary that I should use it in relation to him.

Mr. Speaker

As far as I know, the right hon. Gentleman has never used the word in my presence. But I may not have heard it. I do not have any power, except on a Motion of some kind, I imagine, to expunge something from the records of the House in previous Parliaments. The hon. Gentleman will have to take some steps about it if he wants that done, and I am at his service when I have found out what the right steps are should he want to pursue the matter further.

Mr. Kershaw

In view of your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, about which I am not entirely clear, if the Prime Minister comes back from Germany without having obtained any alteration, would it be in order to call him a Quisling?

Mr. Speaker

I will not rule on a hypothetical situation.