HC Deb 11 February 1965 vol 706 cc573-8
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir Frank Soskice)

With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a statement about firearms legislation.

I announced on 21st January that I was examining the adequacy of the present legislation affecting firearms in consultation with chief officers of police. Our object has been to strike at the criminal, the potential criminal and the hooligan while limiting as much as possible the restrictions placed on the law-abiding citizen and the burden place on the police. The conclusions that the Government have reached are as follows:

First, we shall propose to Parliament that the maximum penalties under the Firearms Act, 1937, for the possession of a firearm without a necessary firearm certificate or during a period of disqualification shall be increased from the present maxima of three months' imprisonment and fines of £20 or £50 to maxima of six months and a £200 fine upon summary conviction, and three years' imprisonment and an unlimited fine upon conviction on indictment. I am also re- viewing the penalties under certain related provisions, such as making a false statement to obtain a firearm certificate.

Secondly, the Government have considered carefully the possibility of extending to shotguns the firearms certificate procedure, but have decided against it. There are probably at least 500,000 shotguns in legitimate use throughout the country and the burden which certification would put on the police and the users would not be justified by the benefits that would result. Instead, we shall propose to Parliament that it should be made an offence with maximum penalties of six months and £200 on summary conviction and five years and an unlimited fine upon conviction on indictment to have any loaded firearm, other than an air weapon, in a public place without lawful authority or reasonable excuse. I believe that this should deter criminals and hooligans from carrying loaded guns—which is the real danger.

Thirdly, in order to deal with criminals and potential criminals who carry concealed weapons, especially when travelling in cars, the Government propose to ask for a new power for the police to stop, search and detain persons in public places on reasonable suspicion that they are in unlawful possession of a firearm. The use by the police of this power would be closely supervised, and we are satisfied that it is required to prevent a rise in armed hooliganism and the use of firearms by criminals.

Fourthly, as the weapons used are, in the main, stolen or illegally imported, I am re-examining the provisions of the 1937 Act relating to the registration of firearms dealers with a view to widening their scope and to increasing the control exercised over matters such as security of premises.

Fifthly, I have it in mind, in the period immediately before new penalties come into effect, to arrange a further amnesty so as to encourage those who have firearms for which they have no real use to surrender them to the police.

I am confident that these measures would help the police in their fight against violent crime, and I am arranging for the necessary legislation to be drafted.

Sir E. Boyle

We shall, naturally, wish to study the right hon. and learned Gentleman's statement. Will he take it from me that we on this side of the House —and, I am sure, public opinion generally —will welcome these measures, which will help the police in their fight against violent crime? Will he also accept that I am sure that this is equally true of those who take the retentionist and those who take the abolitionist standpoint on the Murder (Abolition of Death Penalty) Bill, which we are discussing upstairs? Will he further bear in mind that we particularly welcome the increase of the maximum penalties under the Firearms Act and the announcement about an amnesty?

The right hon. and learned Gentleman proposes that it should be an offence to have any loaded firearm, except for air weapons, in public places without lawful authority. Can he tell us more about how he thinks the words "lawful authority" or "reasonable excuse" in this context can be defined?

The right hon. and learned Gentleman also proposes new power for the police to stop persons in public places. While we accept the necessity for that power, does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree about the importance of assuring opinion generally that it will be adequately supervised and exercised in a manner acceptable to public opinion as a whole?

Sir F. Soskice

I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for what he has said. A "lawful occasion" for the carriage of a firearm will be one, for example, when it is being carried for a necessary purpose of some sort by a person who has an appropriate firearms certificate. Obviously, the phrase will have to be carefully defined in legislation. Obviously, also, there is a personal liberty aspect of the power of police search. I can assure the House that I myself and the police authorities generally will be most careful in the way in which this power is exercised.

Sir D. Renton

I, too, welcome the statement, but is the Home Secretary aware that there are some airguns which are very dangerous indeed and are capable of killing? Will he reconsider his decision to exempt them from this new procedure?

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman further aware that at the moment many shotgun revenue licences contain advice on the back on how to kill game effectively? What is really needed, however, is advice which will alert young people of the penalties they can incur under the Air Guns and Shotguns Act, 1962. That advice should be printed on every licence.

As I made the television appeal in connection with the most successful amnesty so far, may I suggest to the right hon. and learned Gentleman that he himself should appear on television and make an appeal to the public? I believe that such action does have some effect.

Sir F. Soskice

I will certainly bear in mind the suggestions of the right hon. and learned Member for Huntingdonshire (Sir D. Renton). At present, my view is that the Air Guns and Shotguns Act imposes sufficient penalties and contains adequate restrictions for the public safety, but I will certainly consider what he has said. I am grateful for his suggestions.

Mr. Deedes

Is it proposed that the House shall have an opportunity of discussing the right hon. and learned Gentleman's statement, in view of the very close public concern felt in these matters? If there is a possibility of such a discussion, would it be possible for it to take place before the conclusion of proceedings on the Murder (Abolition of Dealth Penalty) Bill, which has some relationship to the Home Secretary's announcement?

Sir F. Soskice

I have no doubt that consultations can take place through the usual channels about possible discussion in advance of the Second Reading of the Bill, which will be introduced in due course. I do not necessarily accept that there is a close connection between the two Bills.

Mr. Weitzman

On behalf of this side of the House, I should like to congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend on the expedition with which he has acted in a matter where inquiry and attention were long overdue. May I press upon him, however, the question of an inquiry into the security of premises of dealers in firearms and suggest to him that it is a vital question that needs attention with expedition?

Sir F. Soskice

The sources from which arms can be obtained for unlawful purposes are a matter of the greatest importance. As I said in my statement, I propose to deal with the security of premises of dealers and sources of that kind and do all I can to dry up sources of supply, particularly through the amnesty.

Mr. Bessell

My right hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) and my hon. Friends welcome the Home Secretary's statement. May we know when the necessary legislation is likely to be introduced? On the question of "lawful authority" or "reasonable excuse", may we assume that guns carried Ix sporting purposes will come under the heading of "lawful authority" or "reasonable excuse"?

Sir F. Soskice

I cannot, at the moment, go beyond saying that the Government regard the proposed legislation as a matter of very high priority and that steps will be taken to introduce the Bill as soon as possible. The words "lawful authority" would include the normal uses to which shotguns are put by peaceful persons.

Mr. W. T. Williams

I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for his statement, but is he aware that one of the difficulties presented by possession of firearms by criminals is the comparative ease with which it is possible to obtain a certificate? Will he, therefore, consider the possibility of tightening up the provisions under which licences for firearms are given and ensure that, once a certi- ficate has been given, the course of the firearm subject to it is followed so that it does not escape through this channel into criminal hands?

Sir F. Soskice

Under the provisions of the Firearms Act, 1937, there is adequate power to ensure that certificates are granted only in proper cases. Certainly, the greatest care will be exercised to see that, where there is any suspicion that the applicant may he unsuitable, he will not receive a certificate.

It is obviously difficult to devise a method by which the career of a firearm can be followed, but the regulations I propose to make affecting dealers will, as far as they can, ensure that particulars are taken of sales, and so on. We shall thereby go some way towards keeping track of these weapons.

Sir E. Boyle

Will the Home Secretary bear in mind that we on this side of the House think that it is of the highest importance' that legislation should be introduced in this Session on this subject? If there is to be a long delay before the legislation is introduced this Session, will he bear in mind that we think that the Government should provide facilities for a debate on this highly important subject, which is attracting so much concern?

Sir F. Soskice

I am fully conscious of and I share the right hon. Gentleman's feelings as to the urgency of the introduction of the legislation.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

The Clerk will now proceed to read the Orders of the Day.