Proposed Closures

HC Deb 11 November 1964 vol 701 cc996-1006

2. Mr. William Hamilton

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will give an assurance that no main lines in Scotland will be closed before a full and comprehensive examination of all the transport needs of the country is completed.

6. Mr. Hector Hughes

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware of the effect of the policy of railway closures on the people of Scotland by depriving them of intercommunication for religious, social and business purposes; if he will state his plans regarding this policy; and if he will take urgent steps to change this policy.

13. Mr. Loughlin

asked the Minister of Transport if he will give a general direction, in the public interest, to the British Railways Board to defer all closures of railway stations until there is further clarification of Her Majesty's Government's policy in respect of such closures.

Mr. Tom Fraser

I have nothing to add to the comprehensive statement I made on 4th November.

Mr. Hughes

Does my right hon. Friend realise that owing to the closures which have already been inflicted on Aberdeen and north-east Scotland this area has suffered great damage? Is he taking any steps, has he planned any steps, to provide compensation for the damage being suffered?

Mr. Fraser

As I made clear last week, I have no power to go back on what my predecessor decided with regard to closure proposals. In reply to what, I gather, was the second part of the supplementary question by my hon. and learned Friend, I have no power to make any compensatory payment to an individual who may think that he has been injured as a result of closures.

Mr. Loughlin

Is the Minister able to say whether he is in a position to seek new powers to deal with closures that took place prior to the statement which he made in this House, and will he let us know at what stage he will present alternative transport arrangements to those which have been made, some of which are derisory? Will he tell me what he has done in respect of representations I made to him in connection with alternative transport for certain areas in my constituency?

Mr. Fraser

As I made clear last week, I have power to vary the conditions my predecessor attached. I am willing to look at any further representations which may be made to me in favour of varying the conditions. If my hon. Friend would look to see whether he has a case for varying them, I shall be obliged. With regard to the time when I may be able to have a look at some of these services already withdrawn, I can say no more than that I am, of course, applying my mind to the problem of the economic and social development plans in different parts of the country and the transport needs ensuing from those plans but those plans will take a little while.

Mr. Powell

Does the reply of the Minister to Question No. 2 mean that all main line closures in Scotland are to rank as major closures and will therefore await the production of a Scottish transport plan?

Mr. Fraser

No, Sir.

Mr. Gresham Cooke

Will the Minister bear in mind that there is no need for any special inquiry into all the transport problems and that he has the benefit of the advice of the Nationalised Transport Advisory Council and the forthcoming Report of the Geddes Committee? Will he further say that it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to continue to try to get the railways on to a paying basis?

Mr. Fraser

I think I made clear last week that I do not consider it enough to try to get the railways on a paying basis.

Mr. Powell

As the right hon. Gentleman is clearly unwilling to give his hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) the assurance which is asked for in Question No. 2, may I ask him to take some early opportunity to indicate which are the major closures covered by his statement so that there may be an end to uncertainty?

Mr. Fraser

I made clear what I had in mind by major closures. A major closure is, surely, one which I think will prejudice the working out of adequate and proper transport plans for areas in which there are to be changes in the future as a result of the regional and national plans to be worked out. It is not possible for me to say now which are the major proposals. I could not in any case produce a list without having proposals made to me by the railways Board.

5. Mr. Wingfield Digby

asked the Minister of Transport what general direction he has issued to the Railways Board with regard to further proposals by them for closures of railway lines and/or stations.

Mr. Tom Fraser

None, Sir.

Mr. Digby

Is the Minister aware that what is needed is less uncertainty and not more uncertainty? His statement last week was extremely vague when he spoke about arrangements. What we want is a cut and dried directive to show exactly what he is asking the Railways Board to do.

Mr. Fraser

If uncertainty exists in the hon. Gentleman's mind, I do not think that any such uncertainty exists in the mind of the Railways Board. The Board knows perfectly well what I want. We discussed these matters before I made my statement last week. I do not think that there is more uncertainty than there was before. As a matter of fact, with regard to a great many lines I shall ensure that there will be no uncertainty in the public mind at all, because the proposals will be put to me and I will make up my mind without putting the public to any uncertainty.

Sir D. Walker-Smith

Would the Minister at any rate achieve certainty on this point? He has said that he has power to vary the conditions attached to closures. As conditions attach, amongst other matters, to the time at which a closure can take effect, is it not clear that within that context he is able in varying a condition as to time to postpone indefinitely, or almost indefinitely if he so desires, the closure in any particularly deserving case, such as the Buntingford-St. Margaret's line?

Mr. Fraser

In all the cases I have seen the conditions attached to the closures are the conditions about the provision of alternative services. As and when alternative services are provided, the Railways Board is then free, when a consent has been given, to carry on with the closures.

Mr. Manuel

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that enough trade union consultation takes place before any major closure? Does he appreciate that a closure of line or a massive withdrawal of passenger services can mean the closure of depôts, either locomotive depôts or railway workshops? Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that there is this consultation so that representations affecting staff and rehousing of staff can take place?

Mr. Fraser

Machinery exists for this consultation, and I have had no evidence from the railway unions that they are dissatisfied with that machinery.

14. Mr. Bessell

asked the Minister of Transport if he will seek information from the Railways Board about the proposed closure of Doublebois goods station; and if he will make the information public.

Mr. Tom Fraser

No, Sir.

Mr. Bessell

Is the Minister aware that this station supplies goods to 400 small farmers, that its closure will considerably increase their costs and, furthermore, that an undertaking was given by the District Manager of Western Region not to effect closure before 7th December and that if evidence were produced showing that a substantial increase in goods was transported from the station the matter would be reconsidered, and that such evidence is available?

Mr. Fraser

When the 1962 Act was passed, Parliament decided that the Minister would have no responsibility for the withdrawal of freight services. That was a matter entirely for the Railways Board. Without an amendment of the law, I do not have power to do what the hon. Member is asking me to do.

16. Mr. Dance

asked the Minister of Transport if he will make a policy statement on the proposed withdrawal of passenger services to which objections have been made with particular reference to services between Birmingham New Street and Redditch and between Birmingham New Street and Worcester.

22. Mr. Peter Thomas

asked the Minister of Transport if he will make a statement on proposed withdrawals of railway passenger services and closure of stations to which objections have been made, with particular reference to the proposed closure of the railway stations at Deganwy, Conway, Penmaenmawr and Llanfairfechan.

Mr. Tom Fraser

Where, as in these cases, passenger closure proposals were published before this Government took office, I propose to consider them in the normal way after they have been through the statutory procedure.

Mr. Dance

Will the Minister apply the same sympathy and sensible approach to this type of closure—namely, for a passenger service which serves a large conurbation area—as did his predecessor my right hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Mr. Marples)? Will he give an assurance that what is to happen will be made known fairly soon, to relieve the anxiety in the minds of many of my constituents?

Mr. Fraser

I will certainly consider this proposed closure very sympathetically, as the hon. Member has asked me to do, as and when I have all the facts put before me. When I have all the facts, including the report of the transport users' consultative committee, I will, of course, make a decision as speedily as I can.

Mr. Powell

Are we to take it from the Minister's reply to Question No. 16 that the proposal to suspend these services is not, in his view, a major closure?

Mr. Fraser

My statement last week about major closures was a statement that could be applicable only to closures proposed after I made the statement. The proposals for these closures were made before I made the statement.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Mr. Snow.

Mr. Dance

On a point of order. I give notice that I will raise this matter—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I do not accept the notice. I called the hon. Member for Lichfield and Tamworth (Mr. Snow).

Mr. Snow

Is my right hon. Friend now in possession of information which, apparently, was not in the possession of Dr. Beeching—namely, concerning the economic developments of the West Midlands which affect several constituencies in the matter of the overspill agreement—and in his review of these cases which are still open for reconsideration will he take into account the traffic which has developed since the original proposals were made?

Mr. Fraser

The development of new communities and any large increase in population which is seen to lie immediately ahead, or to lie ahead at all, is a matter that I would very much want to take into account when reaching a decision.

Mr. Webster

Will either of these cases be involved in a regional plan? If so, how long will the plan take?

Mr. Fraser

I do not know what the hon. Member is trying to get at. I have made it clear that I shall not wait until the regional plans are fully worked out before I reach decisions—of course not; but I shall have regard to the possible economic and social developments before I reach a decision. I should have thought that that is what all reasonable Members, in all parts of the House, would wish me to do.

19. Mr. Owen

asked the Minister of Transport if he is aware of the proposal to close the rail services between Newbiggin by the Sea, Blyth, and Newcastle in the county of Northumberland; when he announced his decision; and whether he will make a statement on Government policy.

Mr. Swingler

The decision to close this service was announced on 30th July and the service was withdrawn on 2nd November. On the matter of policy, I have nothing to add to the Minister's statement on 4th November.

Mr. Owen

Will my hon. Friend consider the economic and social implications of this programme? Is he aware that the local authorities seeking representation are most anxious that their point of view and the information at their disposal on this matter shall be adequately considered? Will my hon. Friend be willing to re-examine that matter?

Mr. Swingler

Certainly. My hon. Friend will be well aware that the Minister cannot revoke consents which were given by his predecessor, but if my hon. Friend or those whom he represents have any concrete evidence to give us on the subject of transport planning in this area or on the alternatives which have been proposed, we shall be glad to receive it.

Mr. Popplewell

May I take it from that answer that this is one of those areas in which the lines will not be taken up immediately but will await further consideration by the Ministry?

Mr. Swingler

Yes, Sir. This is certainly an area where there will be some reconsideration. Consent has been given to the closure and the service has been withdrawn, but this line will come under the terms of the Minister's statement on 4th November with regard to the retention of the track and things of that kind and will be considered in future in relation to any regional plans that are made.

21. Mr. Mathew

asked the Minister of Transport what decision he has come to about the future of the Sidmouth Junction to Sidmouth and the Axminster to Seaton railway branch lines, and the Tipton St. John railway station; and if he will make a statement about the future of railway services in east Devon.

Mr. Swingler

We have not yet reached any decision on the proposals for this area. Reports from the transport users' consultative committees have not yet been received. So far as East Devon is concerned, I have nothing to add to the general statement of policy made by my right hon. Friend on 4th November.

Mr. Mathew

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that information, but can he tell us when a south-western regional transport plan can be expected? In view of his right hon. Friend's explanation today that his assurance in his statement on 4th November about major closures refers only to future closures, can the hon. Gentleman say whether in the case of East Devon, where closures have been proposed and objections have been made, it is true to say that no change has been made by the Minister's statement? Is it not also true that the speeches made by Labour Party speakers during the election, saying that the Labour Party would save the local lines, were misleading?

Mr. Swingler

In these cases the statutory procedure is already well advanced and therefore there is nothing that we can do to stop that. We shall receive reports from the transport users' consultative committee. The change which has taken place is in the terms on which the Minister will consider those reports when they are received in relation to the transport needs of the area and the future regional economic planning in the area to which the hon. Member refers.

23. Sir C. Osborne

asked the Minister of Transport when he will make his decision on the proposed closing of the Grimsby-Louth-Peterborough line; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Swingler

We are awaiting the report of the transport users' consultative committee on hardship. Until we have examined it and all the other factors I cannot say when my right hon. Friend will be able to make his decision. But he will certainly do so as soon as possible.

Sir C. Osborne

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that my constituents do not mind if the Minister takes years and years to make up his mind, because they are bitterly opposed to the closing of the line? Will he also bear in mind that in the next decade the number of motor vehicles on the road may be doubled? Will not this affect general decisions on the closing of railways?.

Mr. Swingler

The hon. Member has stated some, at any rate, of the reasons for our reconsidering this whole position. It is extremely interesting to find that we have his support in considering this whole question anew in the light of the needs of those regions, of economic planning, and of future transport. That is precisely what my right hon. Friend is going to do.

Mr. Powell

Are we to take it or not from the hon. Gentleman's last two answers that when a major closure has been proposed already and has gone through the statutory procedure the Minister's decision will then await the regional transport plan?

Mr. Swingler

Surely the right hon. Gentleman heard the statement made by my right hon. Friend on 4th November. He stated quite clearly the procedure which he would adopt in the light of the closures which have already gone through the procedures of the transport users' consultative committees and the criteria which he will apply when he considers whether or not he should give his consent and whether he regards them as major or not in relation to economic planning. What I have said means that we are adhering strictly to the terms of that statement.

Mr. Monslow

Would not my hon. Friend agree that, without discrimination, we should cease all railway closures until we have had a complete review of the transport industry as a whole?

Mr. Swingler

My right hon. Friend's statement made plain that with regard to major closures that is precisely what we are going to do. We shall consider halting the closures whilst we reconsider the economic needs of the regions. We shall then decide on the best form of transport in relation to our economic plans and our social needs.

Mr. Powell

What can be the possible logic in not applying that procedure to major closures which are before the Minister but on which a decision has not been taken?

Mr. Swingler

We are applying these criteria where these reports are coming forward from the consultative committees. My right hon. Friend is applying the criteria which he set out on 4th November from now on to closure proposals.

Sir J. Maitland

Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that the closure to which we are now referring is a major closure in so far as it affects hundreds of thousands of people?

Mr. Swingler

This is a matter which is again governed by my right hon. Friend's statement. He said that he will not prejudge the issue and he will decide, in relation to the surveys to be carried out, the economic plans to be made, the amount of hardship likely to he caused on the criteria set out, whether he should give his consent. He has stated that major closures will be halted while these plans are being evolved.

31. Mr. John Hynd

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will give an assurance that any further action towards the closing down of services on the Great Central Railway will be suspended until a proper review of the transport situation, taking account of the social as well as the direct financial considerations, has been undertaken.

Mr. Tom Fraser

I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement which I made on Wednesday, 4th November. I am awaiting details of the Board's proposals for the passenger services on this line. Until I receive them I can make no assessment.

Mr. Galbraith

Does not the number of Questions that we are having on rail closures indicate that the right hon. Gentleman's statement last week, instead of clearing up the difficulties, has created more uncertainty? Can he tell us what went on between him and Dr. Beeching at their meeting, because his hon. Friends seem to think that there will be a slow- ing down of railway closures and yet in today's Guardian Dr. Beeching is reported as saying that he will go ahead soon? Will the right hon. Gentleman clear the matter up?

Mr. Fraser

I am bound to say that I have the impression from the Questions put to me on railway closures that hon. Members in all parts of the House want me to stop all railway closures.

32. Mr. Maxwell

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will give an undertaking that the Oxford-Bletchley-Cambridge railway line will be kept open to passenger traffic.

Mr. Tom Fraser

I have now received the reports of the transport users consultative committees on hardship. I shall consider all aspects of this proposal before I make my decision.

Mr. Webster

Would this be classified as a major closure? If so, when can we expect to get the regional plan?

Mr. Fraser

I am very surprised at hon. Members. When I made my statement about major closures last week, I made it clear that I was dealing with closures which I would decide would be major before the proposals were published at all. In this case we are dealing with a closure which has been considered and has gone through all the procedures until it has come to me. Now I must make up my mind on this closure, and the question of major or minor does not really arise in this context at all.

Mr. Maxwell

Would my right hon. Friend please take into consideration that these parts of Buckinghamshire, Oxfordshire and Cambridgeshire are due for very considerable expansion in both population and industry, and that it would be folly, to say the least, if that line were not to be preserved?

Mr. Fraser

The consideration that my hon. Friend has mentioned is one which I shall, of course, have in mind when I seek to reach a decision.