Clause 33.—(SPECIAL PROVISIONS WITH RESPECT TO FERRIES.) (Hansard, 16 March 1964)

§ Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett
I beg to move, in page 30, line 40 at the end to insert: (2) The following statutory provisions shall also be excepted from the operation of section 22(1) of this Act, namely,—

(a) a provision contained in an order under Part IV of the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act 1923 by virtue of section 38(1)(d) of that Act with respect to contributions to be assessed under the order on several fisheries and recoverable by river boards or river authorities;

(b) a provision contained in a document issued under section 61(a) or (h) of that Act embodying the approval of the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries or the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food of the duty on a licence granted under that section to fish:

(c) a provision contained—

(i) in a scheme made under section 58 or 61 of the Water Resources Act 1963 providing for the levying of charges in respect of licences under that Act to abstract water,

(ii) in an agreement under section 60(1) of that Act between a river authority and any person providing for charges under such a scheme as aforesaid to be levied on him at reduced rates;

(iii) in an instrument issued under section 60(5) of that Act embodying directions of the Minister of Housing and Local Government to a river authority requiring them to make such an agreement as aforesaid.

(iv) in an agreement under section 62(1) of that Act between a river authority and the holder of a licence under that Act to abstract water with respect to charges payable in respect of water authorised by the licence to he abstracted;

(v) in an instrument issued under the said section 62(1) embodying a determination by the Minister of Housing and Local Government of rates at which charges in respect of licences under that Act to abstract water shall be payable before such a scheme as aforesaid comes into operation; or

(vi) in an agreement made under section 63 of that Act with respect to charges in respect of licences under that Act to abstract water for spray irrigation;

(d) a provision contained, by virtue of section 79(6) of the said Act of 1963, in byelaws made tinder section 79(3) thereof authorising a river authority to make reasonable charges in respect of the registration of boats in pursuance of the byelaws;

(e) section 80(3) of the said Act of 1963, in so far as it authorises river authorities to make reasonable charges for facilities made available under section 80(2) of that Act for use by persons resorting to an inland 1110 water for the purposes of a form of recreation for the time being regulated by byelaws made by that authority;
and accordingly the references to charges in subsections (2) and (4) of the said section 22 shall be construed as not including references to any such contributions as are mentioned in paragraph (a) above, any such duty as is mentioned in paragraph (b) above or any such charges as are mentioned in paragraphs (c), (d) or (e) above. This is not a drafting Amendment. The Amendment secures that certain statutory provisions relating to the charging powers of river boards and river authorities shall continue in force despite the operation of Clause 22(1), under which any statutory provisions which limit the discretion of the harbour authority as to its charges cease to have effect.
The Amendment is needed because we find that very few river boards or river authorities have genuine harbour functions in addition to river works powers and river works duties, as those expressions are defined in Clause 53. These bodies are not, therefore, affected by the exclusion in Clause 54 which provides that river boards and river authorities are not to he taken to be harbour authorities by reason only of the fact that river works powers are vested in them.
Coming down to details, the statutory charging provisions which will continue in force under paragraphs (a) and (b) of the new subsection arise from the functions of the river boards and river authorities under the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act, 1923. The charging provisions which are mentioned in the remaining paragraphs (c), (d) and (e) relate to the functions of the river authorities under the Water Resources Act, 1963.
As the House will appreciate, the Clause will now no longer be an exemptions Clause for ferries. It has been widened, and no doubt an appropriate change in its Title will be made at a later stage.

§ The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. J. A. Stodart)
I beg to move, in page 40, line 30, at the end to insert: (3) In this section "harbour" does not include a marine work.

§ Mr. Speaker
If the House so pleases.

§ Mr. Stodart
These five Amendments are closely linked in their effect. I want to express the considerable appreciation of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland of the kindness and consideration which was shown by my hon. and gallant Friend the Parliamentary Secretary and all members of the Standing Committee by allowing themselves not to be daunted by the number of Amendments which were tabled after the proceedings in Committee started on the subject of things with which I am sure the Committee must have become very familiar—that is, marine works.
These five Amendments are necessary to ensure that certain classes of marine works, namely, ferries and boatslips, should be treated in the Bill in the same manner as other marine works. I should explain to the House that, as those who took part in our discussions in Committee are only too well aware, these Amendments were tabled in Committee but it was decided not to move them then. My hon. and gallant Friend the Parliamentary Secretary said at that time, with I think the characteristic honesty which impressed both sides of the Committee that he had told the Committee that marine works consisted of harbours. He told hon. Gentlemen that when he was persuading them to deal with the Amendments on marine works. When he discovered that marine works also included ferries and boatslips, he felt that he was inviting the Committee at that stage to take on something more than that to which it had previously agreed.
At present the Harbours, Piers and Ferries (Scotland) Act, 1937, makes provision for harbours used mainly for fishing and transport and defines a "marine 1112 work" as a "harbour, pier, ferry or boatslip". Certain provisions of the Bill—those dealing with the making of orders revising harbour authorities' powers and those dealing with charges—have been applied to marine works by Amendments made in Committee, and the present provisions for dealing with charges in the 1937 Act have also been repealed. Because of the way the Bill is drafted the provisions applying to marine works do not at present apply to ferries and boat-slips and this leaves these classes of marine works out in the cold, so to speak. Unless these Amendments are made there will be no statutory provision at all for dealing with charges at ferries and boat-slips.
It seems clear, however, that while these undertakings have for the past 27 years been treated like other marine works—and to give two examples, these ferries and boatslips include many feries which, I suspect, hon. Members may have used while in Scotland; names like Kessock and Kylesku and the ferry which runs from Lismore to Port Appin—we see no reason for continuing in respect of them the very complicated procedures of the old legislation. I hope that the House will agree that they should be brought into the provisions of this Bill.
The Amendments are essentially drafting Amendments to ensure that the definition of "harbour" and "marine work" includes ferry and boatslip where that is appropriate. The first Amendment provides that Clause 33 should not apply to marine works. I rather blush, after the number of occasions on which hon. Members have been invited to include marine works, that I should, on my first intervention, have to ask them not to include it in the Clause. The Clause takes out of the charges provisions the ferry undertakings of all harbour authorities. As I have said, it is desired to keep marine work ferries within the charges provisions.
The second Amendment is purely drafting, amending the definition of "marine work" for the purposes of the 1937 Act. It deletes the reference to "ferry" and "boatslip" in that definition, which will now read that a marine work under the 1937 Act is the same as marine work under the 1964 Measure. The third Amendment includes ferries 1113 and boatslips, which are marine works, within the definition of "harbour" while the fourth Amendment includes ferries and boat slips within the definition of "marine work". The fifth Amendment is designed to make it clear that there is no disturbance of the present arrangement by which marine works do not include any ferry or boatslip owned by a railways or docks board.
I do not want to labour the point and I think that I can summarise the matter by saying that, as on so many occasions, Scotland is seeking to cling tenaciously to what she now has and I trust that we shall be allowed to do so by maintaining the position of ferries and boat-slips as marine works, which we have enjoyed for the last 27 years.

§ Mr. Hoy
It would be unfair to allow this auspicious occasion to pass without making a few comments in reply to the Under-Secretary's remarks, particularly since he was making his first speech on the Bill. I agree that it is a little difficult, the Parliamentary Secretary having persuaded us that it was essential to put marine works in, that the Under-Secretary should now be asking us to take them out. We are back to Clause 25 again. However, I understand the reason for doing this.
The purpose of the Amendments is to make it clear that the smaller authorities in Scotland can get what they want without having to go through the old procedure. It does not in any way remove the power of the Scottish Office or the Minister of Transport to have control in this matter, and we are grateful for that.
I am sorry that the Under-Secretary has not been able to go all the way with me, because all this trouble could have been avoided very simply. Many of these ferries are essential forms of transport, and if he had treated them as public highways and provided them free of charge, as they should be, the Amendments might not have been required at all.