§ Q1. Mr. W. Hamiltonasked the Prime Minister what discussions he had with President Johnson concerning the desirability of a joint policy on the shipment of arms to South Africa; and what was the outcome of such discussions.
§ The Prime Minister (Sir Alec Douglas-Home)None, Sir.
§ Mr. HamiltonDoes not the right hon. Gentleman agree that a joint policy on this matter is desirable? Is it not the case that the United States has already cancelled big orders of arms to South Africa despite the considerable commercial pressure which has been exercised against the American Government, and that so long as our Government do not go along with that policy they should not be surprised if they are accused of diplomatic and commercial deceit and hypocrisy in this matter?
§ The Prime MinisterWe cannot be accused of hypocrisy. Our policy is quite clear. We do not license those arms which could be used to further the policy of apartheid. What we do is to have the Simonstown Agreement with the South African Government, and therefore we license arms which can be used only for the external defence of South Africa.
Mr. H. WilsonIs the Prime Minister aware that the Government are tolerating the shipment of arms far outside the terms of the Simonstown Agreement? Secondly, is he aware that a year ago his Government, thinking that they had a stick to beat us with, refused to impose any control on arms to South Africa? Thirdly, why do not the Government accept either the decision of the United Nations or the policy of our allies, including the United States, in this matter?
§ The Prime MinisterThe policies of our allies differ to a considerable extent. But we have, as the right hon. Gentleman quite well knows, the Simonstown Agreement with South Africa. which is very valuable to us. He agreed about that himself at one time. I do not know what his view is now. We have complete control, through our licensing system.
Mr. WilsonBut the right hon. Gentleman does not use the control that he has. Will he now give an assurance that no arms will be shipped to South Africa except those specified in the schedule to the Simonstown Agreement?
§ The Prime MinisterWe use our licensing—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] I will answer in my own way, in my own time. We use our licensing system to make sure that arms are not exported to South Africa which can be used to further the policy of apartheid. By and 658 large, our export licences are given to enable South Africa to defend itself against external aggression.
§ Mr. P. WilliamsIs my right hon. Friend aware that some of us are not willing to have our policies dictated to us—as appears to be the wish of the Leader of the Opposition—by the United States of America? Is he aware that there is a Commonwealth interest in this master, and that the Commonwealth interest is to maintain a series of bases and communications around the world, and around the oceans of the world? Is he aware that we therefore welcome the Simonstown Agreement and take the view that anything that Her Majesty's Government can do to assist the defence of the base is valuable?
§ The Prime MinisterYes. I have very much in mind the fact that if we have to go to the assistance of Commonwealth countries like India and Malaysia we have to get there.
Mr. H. WilsonIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that he got out of his first two questions this afternoon by a reference to the Simonstown Agreement? Will he now give an assurance that there will be no shipment of arms outside those goods which are scheduled in the Annex to the Simonstown Agreement? Further, will he say whether the Government's decision to license the six helicopters refers to items in the Simonstown Agreement?
§ The Prime MinisterI should like notice of that question about helicopters. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It is a perfectly reasonable thing to require notice about a specific item of arms. If my recollection is right, these are naval helicopters, but I should like to confirm that, because I do not like giving an answer that is inaccurate. We use our export licensing system for the purpose of sending arms to South Africa for external defence, and I think that that is a perfectly right thing to do.
§ Mr. GrimondCan the Prime Minister tell us whether we are, in fact, in agreement with America on this matter or whether the Americans are taking a different attitude on arms to South Africa?
§ The Prime MinisterThe difference is that the Americans do not have an agreement corresponding to the Simonstown Agreement.