HC Deb 03 March 1964 vol 690 cc1101-4
8. Mr. Dodd

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs, in view of the closing down in August this year of the temporary site for 50 caravans for gypsies and other travellers at Cobham, Kent, and of the slow progress made in arranging permanent sites for 120 caravans, what action has been taken to accommodate those families which will not leave the site for the farms; and what plans there are for providing sites for the remainder of the families when they return from the farms in October and November.

Mr. Corfield

Kent County Council in co-operation with the district councils concerned is making good progress in the provison of sites. Many of the itinerants who usually reside in the county should find accommodation on these sites when they become available.

Mr. Dodds

How can the Joint Parliamentary Secretary say that good progress is being made when the situation is now worse than it was two years ago? Does he not understand that even with the four camps that are suggested, with a maximum of 12, that amounts to less accommodation than for the 50 caravans at Cobham? Will he do something with Essex to ensure that it is not sending its gypsies into Kent, because Essex has a terrific problem but is not itself making any provision? Why is not the Minisitry doing something and not just talking about progress which goes backward?

Mr. Corfield

It is unfair of the hon. Gentleman not to give credit where credit is due. The plain fact is that there are now two sites in Kent but others have planning permission. A further planning application is before my right hon Friend and two more are before the county council. I agree with him that a great deal of the load on Kent is the result of other counties not taking their full share, and I am taking this matter up with them, bearing in mind, however, that I have no powers to direct land to be used for this purpose.

9. Mr. Dodds

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs, in view of the facts that the situation of gypsies and other travellers without lawful camping sites in Kent continues to deteriorate and that the Caravans Act of 1960 has aggravated this situation, if he will take further steps, in consultation with the Kent County Council, to investigate the problem with a view to its solution.

Mr. Corfield

I cannot accept that the problem has been aggravated by the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act, 1960. Sites are gradually being provided in Kent for itinerants normally resident there. The present influx appears to be directly due to the enterprise of the Kent authorities in establishing sites. This should be remedied when sufficient sites to meet local needs are established by districts from which these people have come.

I am arranging for further discussion with the Home Counties authorities at an early date.

Mr. Dodds

Does not the hon. Gentleman understand that before the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act, 1960, friendly farmers and others could give sanctuary to gypsies who worked on the farms, but because of the 1960 Act they are forced to get rid of the gypsies within 48 hours of a job coming to an end? Does he not appreciate that the 1959 and 1960 Acts have made the problem very great? If the Government can introduce laws like those, what is the good of their saying that they have no power to introduce something else to correct the situation?

Mr. Corfield

I never said that we had no power to introduce further legislation. What I have said is that there is no power at the moment. It must remembered that before the 1960 Act was passed local authorities had no power to establish caravan sites.

Mr. Dodds

Does not the hon. Gentleman appreciate that in the Act provision was made for showground and fairground workers to have certificates in the winter because they have a particular problem? So have the gypsies on the farms. Why should this provision apply only to showground workers and not to gypsies who work on farms?

Mr. Corfield

So far as I can recollect, the showgrounds were given certificates in relation to specific sites. The difficulty here is that these people are itinerants.

Mr. Dodds

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.