HC Deb 22 June 1964 vol 697 cc15-8
20. Mr. J. Griffiths

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what estimate he has made of the number of retirement pensioners whose total income is such as would entitle them to a supplementary grant from the National Assistance Board but who have not made an application for assistance.

32. Mr. Prentice

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what steps he takes to estimate the number of retirement pensioners whose circumstances would entitle them to a supplementary pension from the National Assistance Board, but who have not applied for assistance; and what is the most recent estimate.

Mr. Wood

None, Sir. A great difficulty about making a firm estimate is that it could only be done by asking many old people to make a detailed disclosure of their circumstances, with no probability of benefit to themselves. I have considered that the right course is to concentrate on positive ways of overcoming any reluctance people may feel about applying to the Board.

Mr. Griffiths

The Minister knows that he is under an obligation under the Act, which provides for a quinquennial review, to look at problems of this kind and to make an investigation. Has he any reason to doubt the estimate which has been given by many people who have made competent researches into this matter, and repeated by a well- informed correspondent in The Times newspaper last week, that the number of people who are living below the standard set by the Assistance Board, and that means dire poverty, is 750,000 and possibly even one million? Has he any reason to doubt that? If that is anywhere near the truth, does it not indicate that there is a need for a radical revision of our existing arrangements?

Mr. Wood

I have seen those estimates and I have heard them put forward in debates in the House. Most of them stem from work done by Mrs. Cole-Wedderburn under the auspices of the Cambridge Department of Applied Economics. Whatever this estimate was, it was not an estimate of people suffering hardship. It was an estimate of the people she claimed to have found, based on a comparatively small survey, who would have qualified for assistance if they had made application. Some of the cases were subsequently investigated and, in fact, those concerned did not qualify because of capital and other resources. But in any event, I believe that the best approach to this problem, particularly in the light of Mrs. Cole-Wedderburn's survey, is to try to take positive steps to spread more widely information about the services which the Board is prepared to offer, through social workers and through local newspapers and so on. As I announced in the House, I have recently taken the positive step of putting a new leaflet in every pensions book which has the object of trying to ease the way for people into National Assistance.

Mr. Prentice

In view of the figures based on Mrs. Cole-Wedderburn's survey, is it not clear that the Minister ought to have a survey of his own because of the probable size of the problem? When he says that he thinks that not all these cases are of severe hardship, would he not agree that the figure probably includes some of the worst cases of poverty in this country, of very elderly people often living alone and living below the National Assistance level? Is not this a grave social problem which demands urgent attention?

Mr. Wood

I am prepared to consider what the hon. Member said, but so far I have taken the view that this inquiry, which it is being suggested that I ought to undertake, means investigating, as I said in my Answer, in great detail the circumstances of many people who would not benefit at all.

Miss Herbison

Surely even though it would mean investigating the circumstances of many people who would not benefit, the Minister or his Department would also be investigating cases in which many people would benefit? In spite of all the publicity and the note in the pensions book, there are still many old people in this country where even when they know that they can get help, are very reluctant to go to the National Assistance Board, and sometimes personal contact is the step which finally gets them to make application.

Mr. Wood

All I can say is that if there existed anything like the number which Mrs. Cole-Wedderburn estimated—it is an estimate on which figures have been based in the House—I would expect that the social workers and others in very close contact with people of this kind would bring more cases to the National Assistance Board for help.

Mr. Mitchison

Would it not be a useful step towards getting rid of misunderstandings if legislative steps were taken to bring the National Assistance Board under the Ministry instead of being left under a supposedly independent Board?

Mr. Wood

I think that goes a little wide of the Question.

Mr. Griffiths

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply and the very great importance of the matter, I give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the very earliest possible moment.

34. Miss Herbison

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what reply he has given to the National Association of Old Age Pensioners on their claim for a rise in their basic retirement pension.

Mr. Wood

If the hon. Lady is referring to the National Federation of Old Age Pensions Associations, I have had no recent letter addressed to me on this matter.

Miss Herbison

From time to time, the Association in Scotland and the National Federation have made representations to the Minister. From the reply which was given to my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Doig) about the great number of old-age pensioners in Scotland receiving National Assistance, is it not clear that the time has come to give all old-age pensioners a rise in their present rate?

Mr. Wood

I have nothing to say at present in reply to the hon. Lady. She can make her own comparisons of the rate which retirement pensioners are now receiving with the rate which they received in the early 1950s.

Miss Herbison

Are we to take it that the Minister is completely satisfied that a basic rate of £3 7s. 6d. is an adequate pension for old people, no matter what the comparison may be with 50 years or so ago?

Mr. Wood

The hon. Lady must patiently await any further news which may come to her. I was saying that I have nothing to say at the moment.