HC Deb 15 July 1964 vol 698 cc1187-91
23. Mr. A. Lewis

asked the Secretary of State for Defence what recent approaches he has had for Her Majesty's Government to declare themselves in favour of the United States plan for mixed-manned nuclear force; by whom they were made; and whether he will make a statement.

Mr. Thorneycroft

None, Sir.

Mr. Lewis

Can we take it that none of the hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite who have put a Motion down on the Paper in favour of this has had the courtesy to make an approach to the right hon. Gentleman and discuss it with him? Is this not a terrible way for back benchers on the other side of the House to behave?

Mr. Thorneycroft

No. I am not referring to what is said or not said in this House, but I have had no representation from outside this House on the matter.

Mr. Lewis

That was not the question.

Mr. Healey

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of us on this side of the House who regard his current proposals as at least preferable to the official American proposals are shocked that so many of his hon. and right hon. Friends should stab him in the back? Can he tell us whether he has yet persuaded the Chief Patronage Secretary to allow those Members of the Government Party who support the Secretary of State for Defence on this matter to express their views in a Motion on the Paper?

Mr. Thorneycroft

I think that this whole subject is a very—[HON. MEMBERS: "Embarrassing."] No, grave. I think this is a grave and important issue, and I think this raises very large issues not only of defence policy but of foreign policy, too. What I would say is that I do not think that any British Government are going to be rushed into a decision over this subject, which requires very careful examination, and it is receiving that examination.

Mr. Grimond

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the experiments with the mixed-manned force at sea have actually started, or, if not, when they will be started?

Mr. Thorneycroft

The men are being assembled now; it has just started.

Sir Richard Glyn

Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that he will make no statement with regard to plans for a mixed-manned force till the current trials have been concluded?

Mr. Thorneycroft

It depends on what I am asked to say in the House of Commons. Naturally, I shall try to answer hon. Members on either side of the House who ask me Questions, but I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that there is going to be no rushed decision by the Government on an issue of this gravity.

Mr. Lewis

The Secretary of State said in reply to my Question that he had received no approaches. Then he said that it is a serious matter which ought to be discussed and ought to be considered. Can he say whether he has or has not received any approaches from his hon. and right hon. Friends who put the Motion on the Paper, as was asked in the Question? I ask: "Has there been any approach from any quarter?"

Mr. Thorneycroft

I have seen the Motion on the Paper.

Mr. Lewis

But has there been any approach?

37. Mr. Healey

asked the Secretary of State for Defence if he will now make a statement on the proposals he has submitted to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Study Group for a North Atlantic Treaty Organisation multilateral nuclear force.

73. Mr. Critchley

asked the Secretary of State for Defence what progress has been made on the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation working group on the multilateral force in Paris; what was the result of Britain's proposal to extend the multilateral concept to tactical weapons systems; and whether he will make a statement.

Mr. Thorneycroft

I would refer to the reply which I gave on 2nd July to my hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Chatham (Mr. Critchley). Our ideas have now been presented to the Paris Working Group by the British Permanent Representative to N. A. T. O., assisted by military experts from the Ministry of Defence, led by an Assistant Chief of the Defence Staff. The Working Group agreed, subject to confirmation by one or two members, that our ideas merited further serious consideration. They will therefore now be examined in detail. I wish to emphasise that Her Majesty's Government is in no way committed to participation in a mixed-manned multilateral force of any kind.

Mr. Healey

I welcome the fact that the right hon. Gentleman prefers to explore the possibility of controlling existing weapons rather than to set up an entirely new force at very high cost and with dangerous political purposes. Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether the Cabinet is now united on these proposals? He will remember that when he last adumbrated them in December they were rejected within 24 hours by a Foreign. Office spokesman. On the question of the mixed-manned test ship, would he not agree that it is highly desirable that the forces serving on this ship should receive the same pay and allowances? Are not people working together in very close quarters like this liable to be under a very serious psychological strain if, as now, there are large gaps between the conditions under which they serve?

Mr. Thorneycroft

The Cabinet is united on this as on all other matters. I have no doubt that one of the purposes of the experiments in mixed-manning is to throw up this type of problem.

Mr. Critchley

Is my right hon. Friend aware that if his scheme is to be well received by our allies it must not be thought of as a substitute for a share in the seaborne forces but only as an extension of it?

Mr. Thorneycroft

My hon. Friend talks about an extension, but no one has agreed at the moment to set up any such forces of any kind. I want to make that absolutely clear. What is being studied here, on exactly equal terms to the seaborne force, is the suggestion of using existing weapons rather than making a massive investment in new weapons. This is being discussed not as a substitute or alternative but in parallel with the other suggestion on exactly the same terms.

43. Mr. Frank Allaun

asked the Secretary of State for Defence what is his estimate of the total cost to Great Britain of setting up a mixed-manned nuclear fleet, and of the annual cost thereafter.

Mr. Thorneycroft

No such estimate is at present possible. It has not yet been decided whether or not a mixed-manned nuclear fleet should be created or, if sc, what size it might be. In any case, Britain remains wholly uncommitted to joining a multilateral force. The estimated capital and recurrent cost would, of course, be important factors of which full account would be taken by the Government in deciding whether or not to join and, if so, what size a British contribution might be.

Mr. Allaun

Does not the Minister think it worth taking seriously the constant Russian warnings that if the M. L. F. is set up it will end the hopes of a peaceful East-West settlement?

Mr. Thorneycroft

I have already indicated that the whole subject deserves to be taken very seriously indeed.

Mr. Hastings

Are not these comments superfluous, coming from a party which intends to abandon nuclear power? In view of the latest Republican platform which has been published, is not the Labour Party's defence policy to abandon the deterrent even more absurdly dangerous?

Mr. Speaker

Order. We are going far from the Question.